I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

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Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

Postby SRQ » December 1st, 2011, 1:45 pm

Ultima527 wrote:I think that the reason why people are so mad about us Christians (or in your case, catholic) being against homosexuality, or even just pre-marital sex, is that they can't figure out why it's wrong. Now, as believers, we should take God's word for it when he says that something is wrong, but that doesn't mean can't think about it. God has a good reason for everything, even if the world tells you otherwise. All that being said, here are my theories as to why sex outside of straight marriage is wrong:
1: The Bible says that "For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh." Sex is more that just an immediate, pleasurable physical function. It means you are giving your very self to the other person. You are becoming one with them. This is mostly against pre-marital sex, but in terms of homosexuality, you can't give yourself to the other person physically.
2: Like I said before (and please hear me out before going ballistic on me) homosexuality is a disorder. If you have a disorder that makes you want to kill people, does that make it okay? No. Satan wants to deceive you; he wants you to think that being with a woman, and disobeying God's word, is the only way. Don't give him a foothold. Friendship is a valuable thing; it is a gift from God. But today's culture will try to tell you that everything is about sex; therefore, if your feelings towards another woman are strong enough, it must be love. Please understand, I'm not implying that you aren't physically attracted to any woman, I'm just saying that you shouldn't believe people when they say that everything's about sex.
3: The Bible says that if we are saved, we can say no to sin. We can have self control. Self control is one of the fruits of the spirit.


This makes me very sad. I wasn't going to reply to this topic as to be completely honest I failed utterly in reconciling my faith and sexuality. I found it impossible to come to terms with the fact that every good thing I had ever done, and every selfless act was going to be judged by my so called fellow Christians just because of who I am attracted to.

I was raised in the Church of England, whilst we aren't catholic, the High Church (which my grandparents and school were associated with) is all the fun of being Catholic without the confessional booth. Before I reply to what Ultima said, all I have to say to you is this.

- The old Testament only applies to the Jewish. It was also very badly transcribed from it's original language into Latin, and then again butchered on it's way into English. Until the James the First edition, nearly every bible was different.
- If people cast you down and judge you, show you hatred and treat you without kindness because of who you are. Then they are headed to a much deeper part of hell than you are supposedly.
- And finally and most crucially. If you are a kind and good person then you do not need to worry about what happens after you die. Inspite of what the Vatican would have you believe, it is much harder to get into hell than you might think. Hell is reserved for those who live their lives filled with hatred and for those who commit truly awful crimes that shatter both heart and soul. Any relationships you may have in your adult life cannot ever be compared to any of these crimes. And those who will compare them are usually trying to cover their own dark secrets.

Right okay. Ultima. Please do not see this as an attack, I am not angry at all and these words are not heated. (Spoilered for not being totally relevant to the OP)
Spoiler! :
1 - This "two shall become one flesh" is in direct reference to reproducing. Biblical marriage has nothing to do with love and everything to do with securing family assets and political strength. What you have described here is as close to love as someone who hasn't felt it before can guess. It is entirely possible to love someone of the same gender with your entire heart, so much so that it feels like it doesn't even belong to you anymore and that it beats inside their chest instead. You do not have to have a sexual relationship for these feelings to develop. Sex is not primarily about reproduction.

2 - It really makes me feel very sad that you think that this is true. It is not a disorder, and it cannot be cured or changed. Tremendous damage is done by treating it as such, and there are some truly horrific things in the history of the 20th century that are still emerging only in whispers, because of this belief. There is nothing wrong with you.

3 - This I kind of agree with. If you want to be a true and devout Christian, and take the word of the bible to the letter then your only real option is to become chaste and devote your life to God. It is for reasons along these lines that the first Monastic orders were established. However I will also say that to do this is to live a life half full. It is a route that I had considered when I was younger but did not take. Because honestly it felt like I was running away.


So in conclusion. I am aware that your country is much more religious than the United Kingdom. I am also aware that we are from vastly differing sects of the same faith. But I will say this:
- This is not a choice, it is not a disorder and you are no less of a person.
- My mother's new mantra (which she has adopted ever since I came out) is that homosexuality is Nature's contraception. Since it occurs in a large number of animals particularly in areas with a high population density, she is ever more convinced and is constantly finding news stories to back up her new belief.
- If you feel that your life is endangered then you can seek asylum in another country with more enlightened views. BUT you have to seek asylum in the first country you arrive in. The foreign Embassies in your country's capital will be able to help you in this reguard.

As I said, I failed to reconcile my faith and still cannot accept the belief that god has a plan for each and every one of us. I hope that you achieve some manner of balance, which looks possible considering that when I was the same age as you, I was still totally freaking out about being gay and was in a relationship with a girl to see how gay I was exactly. That did not end well by the way, I would not suggest trying to do the same.

I don't know how helpful this has been but hopefully there has been something there.
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Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

Postby Ultima527 » December 1st, 2011, 7:54 pm

Okay, first off, I think I made I typo; it would seem that I implied that ALL sexual feelings are a disorder. That was...a typo.

But I think we're all sidetracking here; this is a life issue forum, where we're supposed to be considerate, and yet, I'm seeing people use this as yet another chance to bash religion. Look, I'm not backing down or anything; I have responses to what people have said, and although I'd rather you didn't, if you must continue this argument, you can PM me...if you really insist on it.
The reason I said what I said before was that, as someone who's gone through a similar experience, I thought sharing that experience might help. I wasn't sure about posting it, because I knew people would take it a certain way...and please, understand, never ONCE did I say that homosexuals automatically go to hell, don't put words in people's mouths!I just thought as a fellow believe who's had a similar predicoment, I thought I should have said something.

But we shouldn't argue here. We should be helping Kairin Touzen. Here's something I hope all of us believers can agree on.

Kairin, God loves you. I know a lot of people say that, but I can't stress just how important it is. He loves you more that you can even comprehend. He created everyone, and that includes homosexuals. I'm not saying this is the case, but if you've come to God and felt that he's been cold to you about this...that he would rather you just left him alone, because you're the way you are, then I'm afraid you've got the wrong view of God. You should seek him out first. Random people across the internet can only help you with so much. God wants you to get this right. So whatever happens, and whatever you decide, don't leave God out of this. Seek him first. If you earnestly seek the truth, that truth will set you free.

That is all I have to say on this thread. I'm leaving the forums until further notice. If you have any more questions, like I said, PM me. God Bless all of you! And I mean all of you!
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Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

Postby mitchellbravo » December 1st, 2011, 11:17 pm

Spoiler! :
SRQ wrote: It is entirely possible to love someone of the same gender with your entire heart, so much so that it feels like it doesn't even belong to you anymore and that it beats inside their chest instead.


This is the loveliest thing I've read all day. As I think over it, I like it more each time. I had a really disturbing end to my day. Thanks for helping it to start turning around.
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Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

Postby Guest » December 5th, 2011, 6:05 am

...I'm not Catholic, although I do go to a Catholic school and was raised Protestant in the United States' bible belt, so I've questioned the homosexual "hate" in the Bible almost as much as I've heard it (which started before I even knew what homosexual/gay/lesbian meant). Even if you try to live by the Old Testament or by the quote in Revelations(?) that lists it as some sort of abomination, and if you believe in your heart that the Bible is God's Holy Word, remember this:

God doesn't mean for you to live by His rules all the time. They are there to guide you to the truth that God is Almighty. Just know He gave you life as gift, and you should use that gift and live.

and

God did NOT write the Bible on physical paper with a physical pen. His word was written by man. Man is imperfect and put day to day laws in the Bible. The Bible is there to guide you but because it's of this earth, it has been changed.

Spoiler! :
SRQ wrote:It is entirely possible to love someone of the same gender with your entire heart, so much so that it feels like it doesn't even belong to you anymore and that it beats inside their chest instead.

Quoted for how much this post made me smile.
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Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

Postby MemaiShirosaki » January 4th, 2012, 12:28 pm

It doesn't matter if you're a good Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Pagan or whatever else you believe in. What matters most is that you're a good person towards your fellow human being :> Your feelings are your's and your's alone; it's saddening to think that society is trying to tell you otherwise. I know how Asian society can be when it comes to religious issues (I'm living in Malaysia myself ugh), but it's best to put yourself above that. It's toxic and nasty, and you certainly don't need it. Your parents will still love and support you for who you are though, what's important is that you're honest to yourself and that you're a good person :>
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Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

Postby The Bearded Man » January 4th, 2012, 1:23 pm

However of what is right, what is wrong. Christians rejecting, hating and discriminating (as in treating someone differently than the others for any reasons involving being different than the majority) homosexual people are going against their own teachings.

No good reasons justify any form of hate against homosexuals as much as against any other man. It would be simply contradictory for a Christian who should love everybody.

In my opinion, judging is a form of intimidation and is therefore not justified and "right" either. Yet again, people are quick to "throw the rock first".
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Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

Postby desideraht » January 30th, 2012, 4:48 am

I'm an atheist, so allow me to give you an outside perspective.

The Catholic church is the most extreme of the Christian sects. Their primary method of teaching is guilt and shame. You can believe in God without people shoving hatred down your throat. The Catholic church also thinks that birth control is wrong. So do they expect people to only have sex when they want a baby? Even using the "calendar method" is sin (and it doesn't work, by the way). Basically the Catholic church says that God condemns you if you do anything sexual without intending to get pregnant.

I disagree.

The Bible was written by, and for, ancient people. In today's world, the rules have changed a lot. While I give no weight to God or the church, I can tell you this: you do not need to let anyone tell you how to share your life with God. Your spirituality is a very PERSONAL journey, so don't ever, EVER let anyone tell you how to do it. You do not have to choose Catholicism to honor God. If people are pressuring you to be Catholic, they are going to condemn you for a lot of things-- and it is not their place to do so. I am not sure how things are in the Philippines, but just know that it is wrong for them to push their morals on you. I wish I could tell you to just ignore them or disagree with them, but I am not sure what the religious laws in your country are like.
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Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

Postby Cave » January 31st, 2012, 1:01 am

desideraht wrote:I'm an atheist, so allow me to give you an outside perspective.

The Catholic church is the most extreme of the Christian sects. Their primary method of teaching is guilt and shame. You can believe in God without people shoving hatred down your throat. The Catholic church also thinks that birth control is wrong. So do they expect people to only have sex when they want a baby? Even using the "calendar method" is sin (and it doesn't work, by the way). Basically the Catholic church says that God condemns you if you do anything sexual without intending to get pregnant.


That's just a huge generalization. I grew up in a Catholic family, went to 2 Catholic schools (though one was only for 1 year and the other for like 8 years) and never had Bible nor hatred shoved down my throat. We had a religion class and learned about all the GOOD stuff in the Bible. I was never taught through "guilt" and "shame" as you put it. We learned about sexuality and it was never something shameful. Homosexuality was honestly never touched as far as I remember but it wasn't really a hot button issue for us I guess. By middle school enough of myself and classmates were discussing our differences in sexuality and beliefs anyway.

Is what I said true for everyone? Of course not. But neither is what you said. There are people who take the Bible word-for-word (or made-up word-for-word >_>) and those who take it with a grain of salt.
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Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

Postby desideraht » January 31st, 2012, 1:55 am

It's easy to say it's not hatred or that beliefs aren't being shoved down your throat when you've essentially been brainwashed since birth. But that's not what this thread is about-- basically she doesn't have to be Catholic, or around hateful ones, to be spiritual.
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Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

Postby Cave » January 31st, 2012, 2:31 am

desideraht wrote:It's easy to say it's not hatred or that beliefs aren't being shoved down your throat when you've essentially been brainwashed since birth. But that's not what this thread is about-- basically she doesn't have to be Catholic, or around hateful ones, to be spiritual.


Uhm, no. In fact, I'd say you are the one being close-minded and hateful in this instance. I've happily been Agnostic even during my time in Catholic school and until today and would hardly call any of my schooling being "brain washed".

Just to reiterate: I am not saying this is true for all. There are "religions" out there that DO brainwash. But making such a generalization is ridiculous.
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Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

Postby desideraht » January 31st, 2012, 2:36 am

I'm gonna have to say you are biased and eager to have a fight where it doesn't belong. The very nature of religion is that it indoctrinates.

If anything respect that people have different views than you do.
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Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

Postby Cave » January 31st, 2012, 2:44 am

How does me saying that I was not brain washed because I went to a Catholic school mean that I have no respect for others with different views? >_> And also being biased and trying to start a fight?

I know this is spiraling wayyyy off topic, but what are you really expecting when you say hateful things like:

Their primary method of teaching is guilt and shame.


I simply gave you an example of how it is not true and again is a generalization.
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Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

Postby Guest » January 31st, 2012, 4:35 am

^ Don't mean to add fuel to the fire or anything, but the traditional view of Catholism is that the teachings are of guilt and shame but only in the context that only God/Jesus can save you from the horribleness that is your life. Early Catholic art shows this through Jesus being shown as an authority figure or judge of humanity. I can't show my old Art History textbooks, but wikiepedia has a short entry on it:
Spoiler! :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_Pantocrator

But you are correct in that it is a broad generalization. I'm attending a Catholic university that doesn't care if anyone is having sex, drinking, smoking, or whatever, provided we aren't breaking the law.

Also, desideraht, saying that one is "brainwashed since birth" to be a Christian is the same as saying one was to be an aetheist (or anything else) as well, from birth or otherwise and implies that the person isn't intelligent enough to make their own decisions. Please choose your words more carefully.

Sorry about the derailment, Kairin Touzen /off topic
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Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

Postby desideraht » January 31st, 2012, 9:08 am

Molly-sama wrote:Also, desideraht, saying that one is "brainwashed since birth" to be a Christian is the same as saying one was to be an aetheist (or anything else) as well, from birth or otherwise and implies that the person isn't intelligent enough to make their own decisions. Please choose your words more carefully.

Sorry about the derailment, Kairin Touzen /off topic
Except that atheism is not learned/taught. It is a lack of a belief, not a belief in itself. The fact is that atheism is not about "making a choice," it is about not participating in faith. You don't have to be smart to reject religion. You also don't have to be smart to be part of religion.

I think everyone is nitpicking my post too much. People OBVIOUSLY guilt/shame the OP. That is VERY clear from her post. So the particular "flavor" of Catholicism she is dealing with is how I described. Defending your "own" Catholicism is selfish and has nothing to do with her situation. I can't really think of a more reasonable way to say this.
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Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

Postby Cave » January 31st, 2012, 11:53 am

Dude. I am NOT Catholic. I am nowhere close to Catholic. I am AGNOSTIC. (As I stated already) I am not defending "my" beliefs. I am saying that how you talked about another religion was ignorant and hateful.

Compare what you said to Molly's post which actually wasn't just a sweeping generalization of one religion and even provided evidence.

You said in another post you want respect when talking about religion. You need to show respect first in order to get it back.
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