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Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

PostPosted: January 31st, 2012, 12:03 pm
by Guest
desideraht wrote:
Molly-sama wrote:Also, desideraht, saying that one is "brainwashed since birth" to be a Christian is the same as saying one was to be an aetheist (or anything else) as well, from birth or otherwise and implies that the person isn't intelligent enough to make their own decisions. Please choose your words more carefully.

Sorry about the derailment, Kairin Touzen /off topic
Except that atheism is not learned/taught. It is a lack of a belief, not a belief in itself. The fact is that atheism is not about "making a choice," it is about not participating in faith. You don't have to be smart to reject religion. You also don't have to be smart to be part of religion.

I think everyone is nitpicking my post too much. People OBVIOUSLY guilt/shame the OP. That is VERY clear from her post. So the particular "flavor" of Catholicism she is dealing with is how I described. Defending your "own" Catholicism is selfish and has nothing to do with her situation. I can't really think of a more reasonable way to say this.


Atheism being "not learned/taught" as a lack of faith is the reverse argument of saying religion is not learned or taught but just part of having faith. You can learn about the religion or on the flip side about why you don't like religion, but neither are a requirement.

Except that the first half of your initial post and your subsequent argument with Cave was about Catholicism in general, not the OP's experience. Either way, the point of my post was that your words initially were very broad with stereotypical ideas about the Catholic church and that they could offend people (I personally don't care - I posted in my own experience to, apparently in vain, soften the argument), so you should probably just choose your words a bit more carefully in the future.

But this is not the point of the thread, nor does it help the OP. Again, apologies for the derailment, and should you wish to argue further with me or with Cave, please let's just keep it to a PM, eh?
Spoiler! :
Image
^ in other words, let's not do this anymore than we already have. lol

Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

PostPosted: January 31st, 2012, 12:16 pm
by Cave
You put things much more eloquently than me, Molly. Thank you.

Just a forewarning about sending me a PM though: I have restrained myself here and still have more to say and it won't be nice nor pretty. :P So I personally wouldn't recommend it.

Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

PostPosted: January 31st, 2012, 2:29 pm
by Rivana
SuperBiasedMan wrote:The Christian belief is that the Bible is the word of God as transcribed by man.
It has since been retranslated and made into different versions.
It has been edited and adjusted, giving different versions.
And it is then read and interpreted by preachers.

It is not absolute.
The Bible as it is, can be full of contradictions and problems that don't make sense as a whole in one book.

Does this invalidate Christianity?
No, not unless discovering that neutrinos can go faster than the speed of light invalidates science.

There are parts of the bible that have been interpreted certain ways and could be easily interpreted in others.
There's a chapter of the Bible that's been cited as being all about how you shouldn't masturbate...but it just as easily might be about how you shouldn't break a contract you've agreed upon with a person.

The Bible is actually not a hard and fast objective account of the past and what man should do. It's meant to be a set of guidelines for you to think about and muse on.

One thing I find interesting is that a specific section of the Gospel gets neglected, the part where Jesus gave his commandmants.
This is marked out as a special part of the bible, where Jesus says all you need to do is love both God and your fellow man with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind.
I find it odd that this is not quoted more, since it's Jesus declaring the 2 basic rules of conduct we must follow in our lives. Instead, people seem to focus on what they've interpreted as victimising certain people for being evil.

The point is, man is not perfect. Including the priests who tell you that homosexuality is wrong. They can easily misread the bible and be taught it incorrectly.
As you say, homosexuality cannot be a sin when you have done nothing wrong. It hurts no-one and is an expression of the one most important thing Jesus told us to do, love.
What sounds more like a sin to me, is when people persecute based on something they couldn't control and force them to adhere to what the people consider the standard.


Well said.

And I shall quote it again:

John 13:34
34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.


Kairin, I am also originally from the Philippines as well so I am aware of the culture (I grew up there. 22 years!). Anyhow, I have relatives who are homosexuals and we don't shun them away. It really depends on how one interprets the Bible as SBM already said. But take heart in knowing that, with your chosen faith of Catholicism, Jesus himself just gave us one 'new' command as I quoted: Love one another.

Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

PostPosted: January 31st, 2012, 4:45 pm
by X4I
When I read the original post (and some of the thread that followed it) I got a big sad.
Now I have my opinions, reasonings and beliefs, but I don't see any use in a theological debate here.
So i'm just gonna leave my two cents for the OP and the rest of it be Meh.


Dear Kairin Touzen,

You asked why some people say homosexuality is wrong. There's tons of reasons why they say that.
Most of them come down to one of two things. Fear and / or Authority.
Many people feel scared of things they do not understand.
People who are scared try to rationalize that they are afraid. Otherwise they would feel silly about being afraid, so it's important to them to have a “good reason”. So it helps if everyone else thinks that way too, or if there's a important person or book that says their fears are correct and important.
Some people aren't afraid of what is different from them, but ARE afraid of breaking the norm. Even though they themselves are not afraid of that what is different, they fear BEING different.
People are rather silly when one stops to think about it.

Now as to why some people are / become gay, well there's some theories about that. The best i've heard was complicated and had to do with the idea that for us as a species it is good that not all of us love in a way that causes too many new members. Think of it as a natural insurance against over population, without robbing those who are “made a certain way" of the ability to love and be loved.
That's just one of the many theories that scientific studies have come up with.

If you would care for a more Godly approach, here's what my devoutly Catholic grandmother made of it:
Souls and Hearts are written by God. Books he leaves for humans to write.
If you believe God made you, then how could you be other than how He wants you to be?
People who say you are wrong for being the way you are, suggest that God was wrong when he made you.
I wonder what He'll have to say about that or the book that lead them to believe such things.

This doesn't change your situation and it does little to ease you path in life, for that i'm sorry.
If I could wave my hands and make them all understand, I would flap my arms until I took flight.
But that's not how it works, no magical powers for me.
People are people, often afraid and silly. Us few can't stop them being silly. (I can't even stop myself being silly.)
Not all of them, not in one go. But..

..Another thing my grandmother used to say: “The Good Lord helps those whom help them selves. And others.”
One at a time, we can help people to no longer be afraid. So they can be silly in nicer ways.
It may be slow, but in time, like rivers dig canyons, like the slow brush of God Himself, people can change the world.

If it helps, this silly agnostic will pray for you, best i know how.

Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

PostPosted: January 31st, 2012, 5:39 pm
by mitchellbravo
That was a touching post, X4I.

Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

PostPosted: January 31st, 2012, 9:04 pm
by Tailsgod
If its a sin then why did God let you like people of the same sex.
Plain and simple.

Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

PostPosted: January 31st, 2012, 9:16 pm
by green haired fae
M'kay. Well here goes.

There are very few discriminatory (if any)(there is some debate but all of the ones related to this aren't debated just acknowled to be edited into the bible) remarks in the new testament that aren't viewed by scholars as later edits and additions.

The strongest passage in the old testament was initially written man shalt not lie with man and women shalt not lie with women under a blanket. So as long as you're not under a blanket I think you're safe from hellfire and damnation.(technically)

but Jesus gave to us a new sacrement and as such you really should pay more attention to the general picture of the new testament which is that of undying and eternal love. Love is God's greatest gift to man(and women)kind. Our potential to forgive and love one another is huge. And so it is my opinion that you should ignore the hurtful comments which you'll get (people who give hurtful comments are generally hurt and confused themselves I've found) and focus on the good things in life.

You should check out your local GSA chapter and become involved. It helps.

Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

PostPosted: January 31st, 2012, 9:54 pm
by Ultima527
Not to sound mean or anything, but Jesus didn't come to abolish the law; he came to fulfill it. The law was meant to teach us what's right and wrong, and to help us understand why we need his grace. He gave us two commands: "Love the lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength and all your mind," and "love your neihbor as yourself." But he said that this summed up the law, not to do this [i]instead[i] of obeying the law. Again, it's impossible to fully obey the law because we are sinful beings in need of his grace, but that doesn't make it okay either. We should always try to do what's right, but our failure to do so (being humans) is why we need grace.

Now then you might ask "why don't Christians sacrifice animals?" ect. These were laws given to the Israelites under the old covenant. You had to sacrifice animals because the penalty for sin is death. The new covenant revolves around Jesus paying that price for all sin, once and for all.
Now, I think that there are two reasons old laws in the old testament are given. A: In order to atone under the old covenant. B: Because it's right/wrong.
The reason he gives for not lying with someone of the same sex is "It is detestable." Now, before you freak out, i just have one question: why would God change what he thought was right or wrong? Was he just being silly in the old testament?

I have friends who thought they were homosexuals, but they have told me that the more they resist their homosexuality, the more they find woman appealing and men unappealing. If you can't control your sexual energy, it follows that you should just have sex whenever you feel like it (gay OR straight) and shouldn't be blamed. This is a worldly lie.

Please understand, I'm not trying to be harsh about this. We should forgive everyone, and not persecute them. But I see a lot of people saying that Jesus' command to love one another is a good excuse to be homosexual. My question is, are you really loving that person? Or are you just indulging what you think you can't control? I think people need to look into this before believing worldly lies. I could be wrong, but if you're a Christian, I encourage you to really look into this and really think this through, before jumping to conclusions. Are we under grace? Yes. Should we just go on sinning? No. With this understanding, try and figure out if indulging homosexuality is a sin or not.

If you're not a believer, I could honestly care less about what you have to say about this; If you have something to say about the Bible not being credible, I honestly don't wanna hear it. If you don't believe something, why should anyone trust what you have to say about it? I'm not trying to be mean or anything, I just wanna express that we Christians need to have integrity and discernment. Don't use things that Jesus says out of context. The Bible as a whole makes sense if your willing to let God give you insight.

Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

PostPosted: January 31st, 2012, 10:53 pm
by mitchellbravo
Ultima527 wrote:My question is, are you really loving that person? Or are you just indulging what you think you can't control?


Why do you seem so eager to assume it must be the latter?

Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

PostPosted: January 31st, 2012, 11:05 pm
by Cave
Ultima527 wrote:I have friends who thought they were homosexuals, but they have told me that the more they resist their homosexuality, the more they find woman appealing and men unappealing. If you can't control your sexual energy, it follows that you should just have sex whenever you feel like it (gay OR straight) and shouldn't be blamed. This is a worldly lie.


I hope you didn't mean to actually put the word "worldly" there. The whole world believes this, amirite?

Why are you talking about God's and Jesus' love for all people and you are saying you are not trying to be mean and rude and yet you say:

If you don't believe something, why should anyone trust what you have to say about it?


That sounds just a teeeeeny tiny bit condescending if you ask me.

Also:

If you're not a believer, I could honestly care less about what you have to say about this


Perhaps the reverse is also true: If you are a believer, I could honestly care less about what YOU have to say about this.

Now tell me, how does that make you feel?

Not to sound mean or anything and I'm not trying to be mean.

Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

PostPosted: January 31st, 2012, 11:20 pm
by trenton_dawn
edit: This post is addressed at Kairin Touzen , in case that wasn't clear.

One thing that hasn't been brought up in this discussion, but which I believe is an important thing to ask, is, what do you believe? What do you think God wants? It doesn't matter whether or not other people call something a sin, because obviously God is going to be the one deciding in the end. Since you are a Christian, the presumably the Bible is the authoritative source on God, and your answers can all be found there (if this is not the case, then you can disregard others' arguments as they are no doubt attempting to base them on the Bible). I'd recommend doing some research (although you may want to stay away from the mess that is Internet religious discussion). Now, if, in the course of your research, you come to the conclusion that God does not disapprove of homosexuality, then you can rest easy that he does not disapprove of you, and..problem solved, at least in terms of your own feelings. Dealing with attacks and put-downs from others is a challenge, but learning to live with yourself is an important first step. The hard part is if you come to the conclusion that homosexuality is a sin.

If you do come to such a conclusion, a key point to recognize is that being homosexual or having homosexual feelings should still not make you feel bad or wrong or (God forbid) wicked. It simply means you have a difficult choice to make. If you truly believe that God does not approve of homosexual activity then your choice is between doing what God wants or doing what you want. If you believe what the Bible says about God then He is your friend and His instructions ultimately are the best way to live a satisfying life. I am purposely trying to avoid using terms like right and wrong, here--people have many different priorities in life, and many different reasons why they may or may not want to do what God wishes for them. I don't know you, so I don't know what your priorities are, and I don't know what things are most important to you. When we make decisions about what is important to us, there are often things that we must sacrifice. The choice of what to sacrifice is always up to us.

Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

PostPosted: January 31st, 2012, 11:25 pm
by Ultima527
Cave wrote:
Why are you talking about God's and Jesus' love for all people and you are saying you are not trying to be mean and rude and yet you say:

If you don't believe something, why should anyone trust what you have to say about it?


That sounds just a teeeeeny tiny bit condescending if you ask me.

Also:

If you're not a believer, I could honestly care less about what you have to say about this


Perhaps the reverse is also true: If you are a believer, I could honestly care less about what YOU have to say about this.

Now tell me, how does that make you feel?

Not to sound mean or anything and I'm not trying to be mean.


You know what? You're right. That was condescending.

But I think your all missing the point; The point I was trying to convey was that Christians need to be willing to look into things and think things through. They need to be willing to believe that God would have a reason for saying that homosexuality is wrong, even if my theories on the matter are incorrect. I said the thing about people who aren't believers because I was expecting people to try to counter what I said by trying to disprove the Bible, thus diverting from the point. I should have let people respond before assuming this, and I apologize.

Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

PostPosted: January 31st, 2012, 11:30 pm
by Loverofpiggies
Ultima527 wrote:They need to be willing to believe that God would have a reason for saying that homosexuality is wrong, even if my theories on the matter are incorrect.
Why are you so certain on defending the idea that God thinks homosexuality is wrong? Seems like you're trying to push what YOU think God is thinking. If your theories have a possibility of being incorrect, you also have a possibility of this theory that 'God thinks homosexuality is wrong' being incorrect as well. I have friends who are homosexual, and religious, and never once thought God would think this way about them.

Okay, sorry, back to the point of this thread. I think the major thing, is that it simply all comes back to you, Kairin. Do you think you're being sinful or wicked? Do you think this is a wrong feeling to have? As I've stated, I have friends who are both gay and Christian who don't think for an instant God would create a form of love (between two consenting people who truly care about each other) that was 'wrong' in his own eyes. If God is as great and kind as people make him out to be, I doubt he'd have a problem with homosexuality. But this does come down to you. I just hope, if you are a homosexual, you don't beat yourself up over it and make yourself miserable. You should do what makes you happy.

Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

PostPosted: January 31st, 2012, 11:30 pm
by gun21
Except that atheism is not learned/taught. It is a lack of a belief, not a belief in itself. The fact is that atheism is not about "making a choice," it is about not participating in faith. You don't have to be smart to reject religion. You also don't have to be smart to be part of religion.


Couldn't disagree with this any more if I tried.

To take the position of Atheism, the belief that there is no creator, doesn't have much merit without any understanding of Science, or faith.

I'm an Atheist because I'm able to back that position up when confronted by the questions of a believer, and in order to answer those questions, I have to know my shit when it comes to science.

If you didn't have any prerequisite knowledge of science and faith to back your position up and answer questions, then your belief is flawed.

Re: I know I am naturally a homosexual, but..

PostPosted: January 31st, 2012, 11:32 pm
by mitchellbravo
The beauty (and/or curse) of religion is that it can't really be proved or disproved, if you know what I mean. Now that you've explained it, I understand why you made a pre-emptive argument there, but it made you seem closed-minded and a bit spiteful, which are not qualities I like to assume of people.

Trenton_Dawn's post will hopefully be helpful to the OP if they ever return to this thread. After all, it is Kairin's feelings that determine the outcome here, regardless of any of the rest of our beliefs or lack thereof.

(This is a topic that can get very sensitive for me, so for my own well being I think I shall duck out of this discussion now. It's been interesting to read what everyone's had to say.)

edit: because some people came in, the first paragraph here was a response to Ultima.