Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

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Re: Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Postby Spacepegasus » July 7th, 2014, 3:47 pm

How much "violence" is okay should be a matter of consent/understanding between two people, regardless of their gender. Some people are okay with being punched in the arm, some are not, and disrespecting boundaries is abusive. The idea that "girliness" decides how quickly someone is a "real victim" is sexist nonsense.
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Re: Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Postby Alybee271@gmail.com » October 7th, 2014, 8:17 pm

Can anyone think of any examples of BL web comics where there is an abusive relationship? (°–°) Thanks!
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Re: Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Postby eishiya » October 7th, 2014, 8:24 pm

Alybee271@gmail.com wrote:Can anyone think of any examples of BL web comics where there is an abusive relationship? (°–°) Thanks!

Almost... all of them...
An example off the top of my head is Kaito Shuno.
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Re: Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Postby blackmoongirl2424 » October 10th, 2014, 9:18 pm

Alybee271@gmail.com wrote:Can anyone think of any examples of BL web comics where there is an abusive relationship? (°–°) Thanks!

I think the proper question is: can anyone list some examples of BL web comics where there isn't an abusive relationship?
Which do exist, mind you.
The Less Than Epic Adventures of TJ and Amal (http://www.tjandamal.com/)
Artiface (http://webcomics.yaoi911.com/archive/artifice-page-1/) Meeeehh, you can argue this one is Stockholm syndrome but eeeeeeehhhhh
Le Renard de la Patisserie (http://patisserie.smackjeeves.com/comic ... r-1-cover/)
TentaLOVE (http://tentalove.smackjeeves.com/comics ... r-1-cover/)
Fruitloop & Mr. Downbeat (http://fruitbeat.smackjeeves.com/comics ... 01-moving/)
Bouquet (http://bouquet.smackjeeves.com/comics/1 ... 000-cover/)

I think those are the ones I have off hand at the moment.
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Re: Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Postby Viival » October 11th, 2014, 9:40 pm

eishiya wrote:
Alybee271@gmail.com wrote:Can anyone think of any examples of BL web comics where there is an abusive relationship? (°–°) Thanks!

Almost... all of them...
An example off the top of my head is Kaito Shuno.

Gotta agree with you there.
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Re: Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Postby jazzremix » November 15th, 2014, 6:41 pm

Asami Tohjou's Love Prism and most of her mangas (not webcomics, she was a pro) had both physical and psychological abuse.

I don't see much problem with there being violence and physical abuse in comics (or mental abuse for that matter), not everything needs to be about sweet love and care. But to me, if two able guys who are in a relationship where control is shared punch each other, it's physical violence. If one of the guys is usually physical in a violent way, then it's physical abuse. If you cheat on your bf/gf and then return with a slap and go away for good, it's physical violence. If they stay and slap you again, every time they remember you cheated on them, it's abuse. If a mothers smacks a child is physical abuse because of her position of power.

If the seme smacks the uke in the rear during sex, probably not :D
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Re: Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Postby mitchellbravo » November 15th, 2014, 6:55 pm

jazzremix wrote:I don't see much problem with there being violence and physical abuse in comics (or mental abuse for that matter), not everything needs to be about sweet love and care.

This is definitely reasonable! I just find it really gross writing when the former is portrayed as being a symptom of the latter. I.e. I wouldn't have to rape you if I didn't love you ever so much and so forth. It's also kind of weird to see readers or even the author themselves making comments about how cute or adorable the abusive behavior is. I know some people look at it as a big kind of roleplay experience, which tempers the creepiness to a great extent, but not enough for me to really say I'm "comfortable" with it.
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Re: Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Postby eishiya » November 15th, 2014, 7:22 pm

mitchellbravo wrote:
jazzremix wrote:I don't see much problem with there being violence and physical abuse in comics (or mental abuse for that matter), not everything needs to be about sweet love and care.

This is definitely reasonable! I just find it really gross writing when the former is portrayed as being a symptom of the latter. I.e. I wouldn't have to rape you if I didn't love you ever so much and so forth. It's also kind of weird to see readers or even the author themselves making comments about how cute or adorable the abusive behavior is. I know some people look at it as a big kind of roleplay experience, which tempers the creepiness to a great extent, but not enough for me to really say I'm "comfortable" with it.

This!

The problem with all the abuse present isn't that it's there, but that it's often treated by the writers and readers as something positive, something other than abuse. On top of allowing harmful ideas to proliferate, it also makes for poorer writing in most cases. Without understanding what they're writing, these writers are unable to explore the consequences of their characters' actions in meaningful, interesting ways.
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Re: Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Postby robybang » November 15th, 2014, 8:07 pm

mitchellbravo wrote:I know some people look at it as a big kind of roleplay experience, which tempers the creepiness to a great extent, but not enough for me to really say I'm "comfortable" with it.


It's kind of a weird rationalization though, because it's possible to depict rough sex/BDSM in a way that makes it clear that it's consensual and just roleplay as opposed to depicting it as spousal abuse and Stockholm syndrome.
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Re: Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Postby mitchellbravo » November 15th, 2014, 8:14 pm

robybang wrote:
mitchellbravo wrote:I know some people look at it as a big kind of roleplay experience, which tempers the creepiness to a great extent, but not enough for me to really say I'm "comfortable" with it.


It's kind of a weird rationalization though, because it's possible to depict rough sex/BDSM in a way that makes it clear that it's consensual and just roleplay as opposed to depicting it as spousal abuse and Stockholm syndrome.

I meant the commenters are roleplaying, kind of as voyeurs. I've yet to see a comic that actually displays a real BDSM relationship and does it in a healthy way :P
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Re: Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Postby Pedes » November 15th, 2014, 9:08 pm

mitchellbravo wrote:
robybang wrote:
mitchellbravo wrote:I know some people look at it as a big kind of roleplay experience, which tempers the creepiness to a great extent, but not enough for me to really say I'm "comfortable" with it.


It's kind of a weird rationalization though, because it's possible to depict rough sex/BDSM in a way that makes it clear that it's consensual and just roleplay as opposed to depicting it as spousal abuse and Stockholm syndrome.

I meant the commenters are roleplaying, kind of as voyeurs. I've yet to see a comic that actually displays a real BDSM relationship and does it in a healthy way :P

I'd say the sexual kink for actual torture/abuse porn and BDSM/roleplaying in porn are not necessarily one and the same. (What irks me personally is the "rape is love" trope and how in yaoi the victims are often OK with that after everything and how audience defends the rapists. Uh.)

Anyway I wanted to reply to the last part: In this years Smut Peddler http://ironcircus.com/shop/ebooks/30-smut-peddler-2014-edition-pdf-ebook.html there is a consensual BDSM story (girl/girl). In the first one http://ironcircus.com/shop/ebooks/13-smut-peddler-pdf-ebook.html there is also an experimenting with BDSM story (boy/boy). Those are a healthy does of smut of various colours and combinations and definitely worth the money :3
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Re: Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Postby mitchellbravo » November 15th, 2014, 9:56 pm

Pedes wrote:
mitchellbravo wrote:
robybang wrote:
It's kind of a weird rationalization though, because it's possible to depict rough sex/BDSM in a way that makes it clear that it's consensual and just roleplay as opposed to depicting it as spousal abuse and Stockholm syndrome.

I meant the commenters are roleplaying, kind of as voyeurs. I've yet to see a comic that actually displays a real BDSM relationship and does it in a healthy way :P

I'd say the sexual kink for actual torture/abuse porn and BDSM/roleplaying in porn are not necessarily one and the same. (What irks me personally is the "rape is love" trope and how in yaoi the victims are often OK with that after everything and how audience defends the rapists. Uh.)

Lol, I tried to clarify what I meant but I don't think I did a good job. You more or less have explained what I meant, which is that the people commenting are saying things they wouldn't actually say in real life but because it is a fictional setting with fictional characters it is a "safe space" to make those kinds of comments, if that makes any sense. At least I would hope that is the case in the majority of commenters, though I'm sure a nice big percentage are the types who contribute badly to the rape culture dialogue at large w/regards to ugly ideas like "the victim did XYZ and therefore deserved it," "the rapist was hot/the victim was physically turned on so it's okay," "men can't be rape victims," "it's not rape if it happened inside a committed relationship of some sort," et cetera.

Anyway I wanted to reply to the last part: In this years Smut Peddler http://ironcircus.com/shop/ebooks/30-smut-peddler-2014-edition-pdf-ebook.html there is a consensual BDSM story (girl/girl). In the first one http://ironcircus.com/shop/ebooks/13-smut-peddler-pdf-ebook.html there is also an experimenting with BDSM story (boy/boy). Those are a healthy does of smut of various colours and combinations and definitely worth the money :3

Thank you for the recommendation! I had heard of Smut Peddler and although I'm not really interested in the material myself I like what they are doing. Good to know there is somethign I can point people toward if I hear the question "Where can I find a comic that portrays an actual BDSM relationship" :)
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Re: Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Postby jazzremix » November 16th, 2014, 10:13 am

mitchellbravo wrote:
jazzremix wrote:I don't see much problem with there being violence and physical abuse in comics (or mental abuse for that matter), not everything needs to be about sweet love and care.

This is definitely reasonable! I just find it really gross writing when the former is portrayed as being a symptom of the latter. I.e. I wouldn't have to rape you if I didn't love you ever so much and so forth. It's also kind of weird to see readers or even the author themselves making comments about how cute or adorable the abusive behavior is. I know some people look at it as a big kind of roleplay experience, which tempers the creepiness to a great extent, but not enough for me to really say I'm "comfortable" with it.


I'm not sure if people find it 'cute', cos I cried reading Love Prism, it's so sad. But, sometimes, if there is a rape because of 'love', and I'm not condoning that but comics are not there to be politically correct, what I think people might find 'cute' is the transformation of an arsehole character into someone who can love, and someone who can forgive,in that case the victim. I'm guessing that is what appeals to some people. There is also the fact that most people approach yaoi in general from a western point of view and sometimes forget that the genre comes from a different society with a very different outlook and values. I'm not saying here in Japan rape and abuse is ok, it's not, but society is very different here. Also, yaoi was never meant to depict anything other than fantasy, be it romantic or physical.

I think what is wrong is when both writers and readers start believing the comic is more than just fetish. Some people are into BDSM, humiliation. etc, and others aren't, so why wouldn't BL comics reflect that? I, for instance, can't even read Hot Gimmick without getting pissed off at the way the main guy treats the girl, but I have no issues with reading Make Love Maker, which is a pretty violent yaoi series.
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Re: Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Postby blankd » November 18th, 2014, 1:14 am

jazzremix wrote:I'm not sure if people find it 'cute', cos I cried reading Love Prism, it's so sad. But, sometimes, if there is a rape because of 'love', and I'm not condoning that but comics are not there to be politically correct, what I think people might find 'cute' is the transformation of an arsehole character into someone who can love, and someone who can forgive,in that case the victim. I'm guessing that is what appeals to some people. There is also the fact that most people approach yaoi in general from a western point of view and sometimes forget that the genre comes from a different society with a very different outlook and values. I'm not saying here in Japan rape and abuse is ok, it's not, but society is very different here. Also, yaoi was never meant to depict anything other than fantasy, be it romantic or physical.

I think what is wrong is when both writers and readers start believing the comic is more than just fetish. Some people are into BDSM, humiliation. etc, and others aren't, so why wouldn't BL comics reflect that? I, for instance, can't even read Hot Gimmick without getting pissed off at the way the main guy treats the girl, but I have no issues with reading Make Love Maker, which is a pretty violent yaoi series.
It's not a lack of political correctness it's that the "transformation" is not actually that of the rapist, but of the victim to pretty much go catatonic or resign to how they're stuck in that relationship. Other times more ripped bodice tropes of "physically enjoying it" but mentally they want everything to stop and afterwords they are filled with shame and loathing (towards themselves and/or towards their rapist) are evoked.

The above would be fine for fetish but it's frequently tied to a "romantic relationship" story where there is no logical reason for the victim to suddenly 180 to loving their rapist especially since the rapist did not fundamentally change as a character.

I would like to say I'm giving hyper-specific examples but I'm not really, this trend is still the prevailing one and while the "genre" does not need to change, the fans and the authors really need to wise up when it comes to interacting. Especially if, when confronted/critiquing/asking if the abuse is supposed to be a kink or not they react with aggression and immaturity instead of calling their fantasies, well, fantasies. (fiction =/= fantasy)

Unlike Japan, yaoi in the western-speaking internet has become an umbrella term for many stories with a main homosexual couple.
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Re: Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Postby jazzremix » November 18th, 2014, 5:50 pm

blankd wrote:It's not a lack of political correctness it's that the "transformation" is not actually that of the rapist, but of the victim to pretty much go catatonic or resign to how they're stuck in that relationship. Other times more ripped bodice tropes of "physically enjoying it" but mentally they want everything to stop and afterwords they are filled with shame and loathing (towards themselves and/or towards their rapist) are evoked.

The above would be fine for fetish but it's frequently tied to a "romantic relationship" story where there is no logical reason for the victim to suddenly 180 to loving their rapist especially since the rapist did not fundamentally change as a character.

I would like to say I'm giving hyper-specific examples but I'm not really, this trend is still the prevailing one and while the "genre" does not need to change, the fans and the authors really need to wise up when it comes to interacting. Especially if, when confronted/critiquing/asking if the abuse is supposed to be a kink or not they react with aggression and immaturity instead of calling their fantasies, well, fantasies. (fiction =/= fantasy)

Unlike Japan, yaoi in the western-speaking internet has become an umbrella term for many stories with a main homosexual couple.


That's true, about the romantic relationship that follows. A good example is 'okane ga nai', that the boy is sold in an auction, is then raped but the guy 'loves' him and slowly he is ok with that and turns into a sort of romantic relationship. But everything about it strikes as fetish to me. I guess the danger of using yaoi for any comic with homosexual relation is that you get this 'confusion'. Yaoi is fantasy, but not all gay comics are fantasy. May authors use the word 'yaoi' because it is what catches people's attention. I'm guilty of that too. I write gay comics and I did add it to the yaoi/BL genre because that's how I can get people to read it, but it's not really your typical yaoi.

You'll always get the immature writer/reader tho, who will go 'kawaii' about something that really isn't. That happens a lot in Japan too.
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