Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Discuss specific genres here. If your post fits into one of the subforums, post it there.

Re: Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Postby blankd » November 18th, 2014, 7:36 pm

jazzremix wrote:But everything about it strikes as fetish to me. I guess the danger of using yaoi for any comic with homosexual relation is that you get this 'confusion'. Yaoi is fantasy, but not all gay comics are fantasy. May authors use the word 'yaoi' because it is what catches people's attention. I'm guilty of that too. I write gay comics and I did add it to the yaoi/BL genre because that's how I can get people to read it, but it's not really your typical yaoi.

You'll always get the immature writer/reader tho, who will go 'kawaii' about something that really isn't. That happens a lot in Japan too.
The "danger" flags are, IMO still present since most of the stuff that is glorified as yaoi coincidentally happens to be the same problems in "regular romance". There is still a very significant problem, and I won't name any names but there was a comic on here that called itself a yaoi and played heavily into non-con/rape and even it's own fanbase said a later instance of non-con/rape was "going to far" to the point that the author removed it.

If yaoi and its fans were so much into a fantasy built upon non-con/rape, why would it celebrate the early sections but then balk at the same scenario in a later time despite how the relationship had not fundamentally changed?

The thing about yaoi is that a lot of it's flagships are built around bodice ripping (which can be fine to an extent) but then a lot of the time the fans will coo about the romance of it and how they wish for their own rapists ("seme") even in a conversation that has it's tone set about talking about concerns on if the material is trying to be a fetish or if it's "accidentally" painting a very realistic picture of abuse.

Even disregarding the community, it also does not help when authors choose not to confirm or actually label what their own content is ("mature" is so vague it doesn't help anyone). It's almost like confirming it's a fetish will somehow disband the fans who have woven a community "headcanon" that paints it as more sophisticated or having more accountability than fetish material.

I doubt anyone is asking for a change of material or media, but I think it's nearly universal that some fan/author interactions and conventions need to change because the attitude blows especially since the use of the term "yaoi" in the western audience is likely not going to regain it's original "homosexual porn aimed at women" terminology anytime soon.

*The community at times is at fault for slinging the label at anything that sticks. They can also have a flip-floppy attitude about it- like they want "better yaoi stories" but then want to fall back on a "it's just dumb porn" stance when the nonporn content is often rightfully scrutinized.
SuperBiasedMan wrote:Just because you've proven something blankd doesn't mean I have to believe it.

Image Image
User avatar
blankd
 
Posts: 3684
Joined: January 28th, 2010, 12:43 am
Location: computer

Re: Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Postby NeoGenkei » November 18th, 2014, 9:10 pm

As a bl comic author or whatever you want to call me and as someone who has been through abusive relationships, some "yaoi" comics with physical/emotional/sexual abuse I have read do tend to bother me when commenters or authors portray it as "ok" but I don't like to let it get to me because:

1. It's a fictional story and authors should be able to write whatever they want.

2. I won't get into an argument with them about it because that's really dumb and a waste of time.

3. I'm done trying to change people who don't want to change.

I get that to some it's a "fetish" but to others, supporting it can upset someone and bring back painful memories. But, as I said before, authors should be free to create any kind of story or characters they want whether it supports a certain idea/situation or tries to change it. In my case after reading so many comics like that I felt the need to create a comic in which the main characters have a healthy relationship that involves someone coming from an abusive past and how adjustments are made by both partners over time.

So... basically, not ALL comics like that bother me just ones where people openly support rape/abuse and since I was unhappy with the amount of gay comics that had people and authors like that, I'm gonna try to do something about it, I guess...
User avatar
NeoGenkei
 
Posts: 41
Joined: December 24th, 2013, 4:23 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Postby Guest » November 21st, 2014, 2:59 pm

eishiya wrote:The problem with all the abuse present isn't that it's there, but that it's often treated by the writers and readers as something positive, something other than abuse. On top of allowing harmful ideas to proliferate, it also makes for poorer writing in most cases. Without understanding what they're writing, these writers are unable to explore the consequences of their characters' actions in meaningful, interesting ways.

See below on this, but also: we can't see yaoi as being a reflection of real life or even a projection of an ideal. I think it's fantasy, period. And as such, the rules of the real world don't apply. We don't expect our swords and sorcery comix to deny us dragons just because the physics involved would make them impossible creatures? The problem is applying yaoi rules to real relationships (even if only in your head), which is as idiotic as expecting your iguana to grow to the size of a bus and start breathing fire. I would HOPE that a serious comic that deals with R/L issues wouldn't devolve into stereotypical tropes when the topic turns to sexual relationships and sexual politics. I may have a chance to put my money where my mouth is on this topic, as I am mulling over the various relationships in my own work, and how they will be portrayed...

mitchellbravo wrote:I meant the commenters are roleplaying, kind of as voyeurs. I've yet to see a comic that actually displays a real BDSM relationship and does it in a healthy way

Challenge accepted.

blankd wrote:the fans and the authors really need to wise up when it comes to interacting. Especially if, when confronted/critiquing/asking if the abuse is supposed to be a kink or not they react with aggression and immaturity instead of calling their fantasies, well, fantasies. (fiction =/= fantasy)

Well said. Call it what it is. If you can get past real world sexual power dynamics and 'fess up to liking it because it's exciting in the abstract, while understanding that the real world does not and is never going to work that way (THANK GOD!), then good on ya. The groundbreaking work of Nancy Friday in re: sexual fantasies and what kind of role they play in a well-rounded and healthy psyche might be a good place to go when discussing the implications of yaoi within a fantasy context. Ultimately, I think, if it exists in the realm of fantasy (and this includes R/T roleplaying by consenting adults), then all is permitted, nothing is forbidden, to paraphrase Aleister Crowley.
Guest
 

Re: Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Postby eishiya » November 21st, 2014, 3:15 pm

mraab wrote:
eishiya wrote:The problem with all the abuse present isn't that it's there, but that it's often treated by the writers and readers as something positive, something other than abuse. On top of allowing harmful ideas to proliferate, it also makes for poorer writing in most cases. Without understanding what they're writing, these writers are unable to explore the consequences of their characters' actions in meaningful, interesting ways.

See below on this, but also: we can't see yaoi as being a reflection of real life or even a projection of an ideal. I think it's fantasy, period. And as such, the rules of the real world don't apply. We don't expect our swords and sorcery comix to deny us dragons just because the physics involved would make them impossible creatures? The problem is applying yaoi rules to real relationships (even if only in your head), which is as idiotic as expecting your iguana to grow to the size of a bus and start breathing fire. I would HOPE that a serious comic that deals with R/L issues wouldn't devolve into stereotypical tropes when the topic turns to sexual relationships and sexual politics. I may have a chance to put my money where my mouth is on this topic, as I am mulling over the various relationships in my own work, and how they will be portrayed...

We expect certain rules in fantasy too. We expect a person burnt by dragon's fire to bear scars of that encounter, physical and psychological, for example, or we at least expect a solid in-world reason for why they don't (such as magic that healed their body and mind). We expect that heroes' misdeeds are not disregarded by the story and cry "that's crap writing!" when they are (characters disregarding said misdeeds even though the story does not is different, and can be interesting). A story isn't exempt from needing internal consistency/consequences just because it's fantasy, being fantasy just means the world follows modified rules (but not an entirely different set of rules).
Image
User avatar
eishiya
 
Posts: 9769
Joined: December 5th, 2009, 11:17 am

Re: Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Postby blankd » November 21st, 2014, 5:42 pm

mraab wrote:
blankd wrote:the fans and the authors really need to wise up when it comes to interacting. Especially if, when confronted/critiquing/asking if the abuse is supposed to be a kink or not they react with aggression and immaturity instead of calling their fantasies, well, fantasies. (fiction =/= fantasy)

Well said. Call it what it is. If you can get past real world sexual power dynamics and 'fess up to liking it because it's exciting in the abstract, while understanding that the real world does not and is never going to work that way (THANK GOD!), then good on ya. The groundbreaking work of Nancy Friday in re: sexual fantasies and what kind of role they play in a well-rounded and healthy psyche might be a good place to go when discussing the implications of yaoi within a fantasy context. Ultimately, I think, if it exists in the realm of fantasy (and this includes R/T roleplaying by consenting adults), then all is permitted, nothing is forbidden, to paraphrase Aleister Crowley.

The other issue to this problem onion is that 99% of yaoi is about relationships, not all yaoi is defined as "needs power imbalance" or "needs rape". While it is the most common, it is not the definition. The other is that many of these yaois label themselves as romances instead of sexual fantasies. That there is so much confusion and interchangeability between sexual fantasy and romance is yet another problem in the medium and outside of it.

The issue with saying "but dragons" is that there is a clear, discernible fantasy to it.

I don't know if Yaoi's uncannily accurate depiction of a victim asking for help and being subsequently blamed for "letting himself get raped" is playing into that fantasy or somehow a disturbing replication of someone's inescapable reality or just awful writing. Yaoi doesn't JUST STOP at having bodice-ripping elements, they mix in "romance" elements or try to paint the rapist as being in the right by portraying the rape as somehow romantic instead of clearly defining the sexual fantasy of the work.

Also you might want to remember that there has been an expansion of the term yaoi and it now encompasses works that simply have homosexual leads, or works that don't even have explicit sex in it, and that just adds more problems. Yaoi doesn't mean what you consider the definition any more so to regress the conversation back to it's "original definition" doesn't help the conversation.
SuperBiasedMan wrote:Just because you've proven something blankd doesn't mean I have to believe it.

Image Image
User avatar
blankd
 
Posts: 3684
Joined: January 28th, 2010, 12:43 am
Location: computer

Re: Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Postby Guest » November 21st, 2014, 7:57 pm

blankd wrote:Also you might want to remember that there has been an expansion of the term yaoi and it now encompasses works that simply have homosexual leads, or works that don't even have explicit sex in it, and that just adds more problems. Yaoi doesn't mean what you consider the definition any more so to regress the conversation back to it's "original definition" doesn't help the conversation.

Ooops. Sorry.
Guest
 

Re: Abuse in BL/Yaoi relationships?

Postby tentacletomato » September 10th, 2017, 6:24 pm

Sometimes in storytelling, sudden violence can give a bigger impact than talking it out. That's to say, it's all in context, and it's all in fictional context. Now, if someone has articulation problems to the point they gotta resort to that, it's not healthy. Abuse is abuse. How it's used to shape the story/characters is important. I don't believe everything is in black or white, so you can definitely utilize the complexities of abusive relationships to develop characters. Motivations, why do they hit? Why do they stay in the relationship? etc. It's all really depends on what message you're trying to get out. But if you're talking about if it "counts" as abuse in general, I'll recite something Oprah said that has taken law into relationships for me. "If he/she hits you once, they'll do it again." One punch will always lead to another.
Image
User avatar
tentacletomato
 
Posts: 39
Joined: March 27th, 2016, 7:44 pm

Previous

Return to Genre-Specific Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests