Superheros! i need lil help with your awnsers!

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Superheros! i need lil help with your awnsers!

Postby Taz Hassiotis » June 18th, 2017, 5:04 am

hey, guys!

im curently working on a superhero comic named: TURTLEBOY.

and im actually trying to make a awsome story that is lightharted, hero is fighting the bad guys, is more optimistic and helpfull to anyone!

but since im still not sure what will hapen in upcoming seaquels (i have only ideas who will apear and some spin-offs from the series focusing on other characters, but its just ideas so far)

and here is my main question:
WHAT DO YOU EXCEPT FROM SUPERHERO COMICS!
or better
WHat do you miss or is missing in the recent superhero comics ?
and
What annoys you in curent superheros in overall media (comics, movies, cartoons and etc.) ?

this will be rreally helpfull and could help me what i could do better in my upcoming project :)

ill be happy for any replys or awnsers, and it will make the progress of my project lil bit easier.

have a good day
TAZ
http://www.smackjeeves.com/comicprofile.php?id=168093
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Re: Superheros! i need lil help with your awnsers!

Postby eishiya » June 18th, 2017, 10:52 am

Please don't link to your comic in your post, it's spammy. You can include the link in your signature instead.


You should make a story that's to your taste, a story that addresses your concerns and issues with the genre. If you make a story based on what other people want, you'll just end up with the same design-by-committee that makes mainstream superhero comics so repetitive and non-committal. You'll also have a lot less in the comic that you personally love and are interested in, and it'll show as lower quality writing and art.

Make the superhero comic you think is missing from the world. You'll enjoy working on that a lot more. If you're not sure what that is, or need more ideas, then let it sit and brew a while longer.

Of course, perhaps I've misunderstood your post, and you already know all this and are just looking for something to spark your brainstorming. In that case, I'll try to give you some fodder:

I want to see more superhero stories with defined beginnings, middles, and ends. Stories that go on forever get boring and are usually unsatisfying, and usually end up either stale as the characters fight essentially the same enemies over and over, or run into problems with escalation, where subsequent baddies have to be stronger and stronger than the ones before, growing ever more ridiculous. Having a defined ending point allows the writer to make every fight matter to the hero and to the reader. They can grow as a character, and have a satisfying ending. Without this, it's usually only the hero's origin story that has any real character growth; beyond that, if the story is to continue indefinitely, the character has to stay the more or less the same. This is precisely why Hollywood, DC and Marvel love reboots so much.

I want to see more supervillains who are enemies specifically to our hero, not the world at large. This ties into making every fight matter to the hero. I want to see more antagonists who see the hero as the supervillain and are doing what they believe is right. Mainstream comics try to give their antagonists noble motivations, but the conflicts typically involve entire cities or even planets, they're too impersonal. Or, they'll go the opposite route and get so personal that the reader has a hard time caring - antagonists from the hero's childhood, antagonists who hate the hero for no reason that matters to the reader. This often stems from comics trying to run forever and not allowing the status quo to change too much. With a defined story arc, this ceases to be a problem and everyone can have interesting motivations and character development.

I'd also like to see superheroes whose powers change over the course of the story, and in different ways than just getting more powerful. Again, this is easiest to do effectively in a story with a defined ending. How about a hero with a finite supply of power, one who grows weaker every time they use their power? They have to take down the Big Bad before they become too weak. What about a hero who can secrete web at will and gets pretty good at being a superhero that way, but halfway through the story, they pupate and get butterfly/moth wings and supersenses instead?

On the subject of wings: I'm sick of superheroes who can fly just because. It's boring, and it's lazy. I want more heroes who have to be clever about reaching their destinations/enemies rather than just zooming to them. I want more heroes whose flight (and other powers!) come with physical costs like having wings that one can't get clothing for, perhaps they can't even go out in public because of their "deformity".

On a related note, I'm quite bored with most superheroes having the Required Secondary Powers. Again, I want to see superheroes use their wits to get around their limitations, instead of the authors hand-waving them away. I want to see superheroes who are vulnerable to damage, superheroes who can punch through a bank vault but can't lift a truck because it would break, superheroes who can't turn their super-vision off, superheroes who have to eat their weight in food every day to keep up with the energy their powers use...

Hopefully this will give you some neat ideas! It turned out to be more of a rant than I intended.
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Re: Superheros! i need lil help with your awnsers!

Postby Ultima527 » June 18th, 2017, 7:29 pm

I love superheroes, but I don't read a lot of superhero comics. I guess that makes me a poser...
Honestly, I only read web-comics. Buying/borrowing printed comics just seem like too much trouble to go through for just a couple pages (to me, anyway) so that rules out Marvel and DC. So pardon my skewed knowledge; it is based entirely around the movies and what I can remember from the 90s cartoons.
I agree with Eishiya; you should do what YOU want. On the other hand, listening to others can help you figure out what you want, so here's my two cents:

Although, it really depends on what approach you're going for. It definitely sounds like your going for something lighter toned, so we can rule out the "gritty, realistic" approach.
.....(Dang. I wanted another excuse to roast DC).
I guess what I mean to say is, are you down with something more comical, and perhaps satirical, or are you trying to "recapture the magic" of classic superheroes? Because doing both is possible, and while it is easy to botch, I think it can be done right. In other words, be campy, make fun of yourself for being campy, but at the end of the day, don't be ashamed of it. The affectionate parody is, in my opinion, an untapped genre with a lot of potential.

I've read comics that tried to re-capture the magic (as I'm now apparently calling it), and it always leaves me conflicted. The reader obviously loves the genre, loves what they're doing, and are obviously having a great time, and in that respect I'm happy for them, but far too often, the author is so in love with the idea of what they're doing that they neglect the quality that could really make their story great. Usually, they have a small (if existent) fan-base, so a part of me feels bad for them, but the more cold and calculating part of my mind realizes they deserve it.

To summarize, love what you do, but don't love it blindly. I can see you've got the first part down, and the fact that you're asking about this shows you're eager to avoid the latter. Again, this is great, but remember that you don't have to do everything we say.

So that got a little more philosophical than I intended...to get back on topic, here's what I like or would like in a superhero story, whether I've seen it before or not:
Make sure your hero's (and villain's) powers are clearly defined. I don't really care about scale; I care more about consistency. Define what your characters can do and what they can't do, and don't change it up for the sake of the plot. This advice is usually aimed at the hero, but I think it's usually the villain who needs it more. Too often, the powers of the villains seem vague; the power of the villain (usually the archvillain) seems to be to conjure up whatever obstacle the plot calls for. You don't have to limit how many powers they have; just don't make them up as you go along. Make the villain scary, but make them finite. Give them a scary, dangerous power (or set of powers), but leave it at that. Let the hero figure out how to get around it, without having to deal with some other ability thrown in at the last minute, forcing the hero to rely on willpower or a lazily written, heroic sacrifice. To me, nothing is more satisfying than watching everything we already know about come together as the hero outsmarts the villain, rather than out...determines...them. You can still play it up that way, just don't make it a deus-ex-machina.

Don't be afraid to make the villain sympathetic, but make sure the hero is the one we're rooting for. Accidentally making the villain more sympathetic is exactly why the "from the villain's point of view" sub-genre exists (and sadly, everyone who dabbles in this sub-genre thinks they invented it. No, you're not a genius for basing the hero off your high-school bully.)
Make the motivations of both the hero(s) and the villain(s) believable.

I like heroes with clearly defined powers and believable motivations. I also like superhero comics to be self aware, but not apologetically self away. Poke fun at the genre, but don't over due it. And when you do, try to be creative with the jokes; we've all heard "lol, men with tights!" a millions times. Do something different. Have fun with it. Make jokes without showing cynical, contempt for the genre.

Now for some things I don't like:
Spidermans. Don't get me wrong, I like Spiderman. What I don't like is everything trying to take the same approach; an angsty, teenage superhero, where much of the conflict revolves around how hard it is to juggle their normal life with being a superhero. I'm not even against this concept, I just feel that too many people mimic it formulaic without putting their own, unique spin on it. Do it if you want to, but make sure you're making it your own. Try and add something new; show a different angle.
Of course, I'd be wary of the opposite extreme; making your character really cool with, and dare I say, psyched out, about being a hero. I don't want to hear someone stand around and talk about how awesome superheroes are. Don't try to convince us you love superheroes. I believe you, and I agree. A little commentary is okay, but overall, show, don't tell. Be the thing your exited about.

Ironmans. Again, love Ironman, but in this area, even Marvel can't help but repeat it's own formula. I feel like Ant Man and Deadpool are both just tweaked versions of Ironman; Ant Man is just Ironman as a petty thief, and Deadpool is Ironman except WHOA! HE'S VULGAR! THAT IS SO REVOLUTIONARY!!!!
(Okay, before anyone get's up in arms, I thought Deadpool was a good movie overall...but to be honest, I hardly laughed.)
Okay, maybe Deadpool's a bit of a stretch, but do you get what I'm saying? All the heroes (mainstream or otherwise) who's whole gimick is to crack jokes, they all start to run together after a while. Again, if you think you can do it well and put your own spin on it, that's fine.

I guess, overall, what I'm trying to say is, don't do something that's been done before and try to pass it off as original. That's the only thing that really irks me. If you want to do something that's been done before, admit that it's been done before, and then try to do it better. And if you want to do something different...I hope you can pull it off.


Okay, sorry for the long rant, and sorry if it wasn't specific enough. You really got me thinking. Anyway, I hope it was helpful!
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Re: Superheros! i need lil help with your awnsers!

Postby Taz Hassiotis » June 19th, 2017, 3:24 am

eishiya wrote:Please don't link to your comic in your post, it's spammy. You can include the link in your signature instead.

-ok- I apologise to that, I didn't know and it's first time for me to use forums so I'm still geting used to it...but again, sorry

You should make a story that's to your taste, a story that addresses your concerns and issues with the genre. If you make a story based on what other people want, you'll just end up with the same design-by-committee that makes mainstream superhero comics so repetitive and non-committal. You'll also have a lot less in the comic that you personally love and are interested in, and it'll show as lower quality writing and art.

--I'm definitley doing my own, I just wanted to know what people think and get inspiration and brainsorm future seaquels
(and yes I'm going back to the old days of heros with focus on character driven sorta story)

Make the superhero comic you think is missing from the world. You'll enjoy working on that a lot more. If you're not sure what that is, or need more ideas, then let it sit and brew a while longer.

--Oh I did that! And i do know what i want+ i mentioned it above

Of course, perhaps I've misunderstood your post, and you already know all this and are just looking for something to spark your brainstorming. In that case, I'll try to give you some fodder:

--i mentioned that :p

I want to see more superhero stories with defined beginnings, middles, and ends. Stories that go on forever get boring and are usually unsatisfying, and usually end up either stale as the characters fight essentially the same enemies over and over, or run into problems with escalation, where subsequent baddies have to be stronger and stronger than the ones before, growing ever more ridiculous. Having a defined ending point allows the writer to make every fight matter to the hero and to the reader. They can grow as a character, and have a satisfying ending. Without this, it's usually only the hero's origin story that has any real character growth; beyond that, if the story is to continue indefinitely, the character has to stay the more or less the same. This is precisely why Hollywood, DC and Marvel love reboots so much.

--Oh sure- i do plan not be looong ongoing, and I certinly have to end it somewhere. Not to mention the stoy will make the characters face consequences! And no reboots planed at all!
(wow this one was helpful :) )


I want to see more supervillains who are enemies specifically to our hero, not the world at large. This ties into making every fight matter to the hero. I want to see more antagonists who see the hero as the supervillain and are doing what they believe is right. Mainstream comics try to give their antagonists noble motivations, but the conflicts typically involve entire cities or even planets, they're too impersonal. Or, they'll go the opposite route and get so personal that the reader has a hard time caring - antagonists from the hero's childhood, antagonists who hate the hero for no reason that matters to the reader. This often stems from comics trying to run forever and not allowing the status quo to change too much. With a defined story arc, this ceases to be a problem and everyone can have interesting motivations and character development.

--Il note this one- i do plan have a rouges gallery of my, but I still never thought of it this way!

I'd also like to see superheroes whose powers change over the course of the story, and in different ways than just getting more powerful. Again, this is easiest to do effectively in a story with a defined ending. How about a hero with a finite supply of power, one who grows weaker every time they use their power? They have to take down the Big Bad before they become too weak. What about a hero who can secrete web at will and gets pretty good at being a superhero that way, but halfway through the story, they pupate and get butterfly/moth wings and supersenses instead?

--again noted! :) And im planing to do something like that during my run on Turtleboy.

On the subject of wings: I'm sick of superheroes who can fly just because. It's boring, and it's lazy. I want more heroes who have to be clever about reaching their destinations/enemies rather than just zooming to them. I want more heroes whose flight (and other powers!) come with physical costs like having wings that one can't get clothing for, perhaps they can't even go out in public because of their "deformity".

--(--and no worries-Jesse/Turtleboy does have powers he will still try to use more of his brains and some minor gadgets of his)
I'm not planing on heros that fly later on, but still good point :)

On a related note, I'm quite bored with most superheroes having the Required Secondary Powers. Again, I want to see superheroes use their wits to get around their limitations, instead of the authors hand-waving them away. I want to see superheroes who are vulnerable to damage, superheroes who can punch through a bank vault but can't lift a truck because it would break, superheroes who can't turn their super-vision off, superheroes who have to eat their weight in food every day to keep up with the energy their powers use...

--OH that is especialy what i had on mind while crating Turtleboy- yes he has some lil powers (he has one big power-but not gonna tell bacause spoilers)
and he of course will use some wits and wont rely on his powers (maybe a little on some things but he uses some gadgets )

--sooo yea this part I'll be also exploring trough out the series (especially in part when the characters will try explain why they got the powers and what made them had these powers)

Hopefully this will give you some neat ideas! It turned out to be more of a rant than I intended.


--OH HO HO - it definitley helped alot, and im soo much thankfull to that :)
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Re: Superheros! i need lil help with your awnsers!

Postby Taz Hassiotis » June 19th, 2017, 3:40 am

Ultima527 wrote:I love superheroes, but I don't read a lot of superhero comics. I guess that makes me a poser...
Honestly, I only read web-comics. Buying/borrowing printed comics just seem like too much trouble to go through for just a couple pages (to me, anyway) so that rules out Marvel and DC. So pardon my skewed knowledge; it is based entirely around the movies and what I can remember from the 90s cartoons.
I agree with Eishiya; you should do what YOU want. On the other hand, listening to others can help you figure out what you want, so here's my two cents:

--- and I DO!

Although, it really depends on what approach you're going for. It definitely sounds like your going for something lighter toned, so we can rule out the "gritty, realistic" approach.
.....(Dang. I wanted another excuse to roast DC).
I guess what I mean to say is, are you down with something more comical, and perhaps satirical, or are you trying to "recapture the magic" of classic superheroes? Because doing both is possible, and while it is easy to botch, I think it can be done right. In other words, be campy, make fun of yourself for being campy, but at the end of the day, don't be ashamed of it. The affectionate parody is, in my opinion, an untapped genre with a lot of potential.

--well i do go for the good old days of heros, but ill be focusing on character developmnet and on other aspects, since main hero is still a kid
--and i alredy did give a punch to the ganre in second page of the comic ( although it could had come off as bit cynical)

I've read comics that tried to re-capture the magic (as I'm now apparently calling it), and it always leaves me conflicted. The reader obviously loves the genre, loves what they're doing, and are obviously having a great time, and in that respect I'm happy for them, but far too often, the author is so in love with the idea of what they're doing that they neglect the quality that could really make their story great. Usually, they have a small (if existent) fan-base, so a part of me feels bad for them, but the more cold and calculating part of my mind realizes they deserve it.

--ok I'll keep that in my mind

To summarize, love what you do, but don't love it blindly. I can see you've got the first part down, and the fact that you're asking about this shows you're eager to avoid the latter. Again, this is great, but remember that you don't have to do everything we say.

--of course!! but its a lil good way for brainstorming and helps me for what im looking for Turtleboy

So that got a little more philosophical than I intended...to get back on topic, here's what I like or would like in a superhero story, whether I've seen it before or not:
Make sure your hero's (and villain's) powers are clearly defined. I don't really care about scale; I care more about consistency. Define what your characters can do and what they can't do, and don't change it up for the sake of the plot. This advice is usually aimed at the hero, but I think it's usually the villain who needs it more. Too often, the powers of the villains seem vague; the power of the villain (usually the archvillain) seems to be to conjure up whatever obstacle the plot calls for. You don't have to limit how many powers they have; just don't make them up as you go along. Make the villain scary, but make them finite. Give them a scary, dangerous power (or set of powers), but leave it at that. Let the hero figure out how to get around it, without having to deal with some other ability thrown in at the last minute, forcing the hero to rely on willpower or a lazily written, heroic sacrifice. To me, nothing is more satisfying than watching everything we already know about come together as the hero outsmarts the villain, rather than out...determines...them. You can still play it up that way, just don't make it a deus-ex-machina.

--about that, seeking the awnsers where he got the powers will be one of the plot points for the turtleboy series

Don't be afraid to make the villain sympathetic, but make sure the hero is the one we're rooting for. Accidentally making the villain more sympathetic is exactly why the "from the villain's point of view" sub-genre exists (and sadly, everyone who dabbles in this sub-genre thinks they invented it. No, you're not a genius for basing the hero off your high-school bully.)
Make the motivations of both the hero(s) and the villain(s) believable.

--ill note this one

I like heroes with clearly defined powers and believable motivations. I also like superhero comics to be self aware, but not apologetically self away. Poke fun at the genre, but don't over due it. And when you do, try to be creative with the jokes; we've all heard "lol, men with tights!" a millions times. Do something different. Have fun with it. Make jokes without showing cynical, contempt for the genre.

- ok, I keep this one on mind for future seaquels
(i think when i gave the punch for the ganre in second page-it maybe did felt cynical)

Now for some things I don't like:
Spidermans. Don't get me wrong, I like Spiderman. What I don't like is everything trying to take the same approach; an angsty, teenage superhero, where much of the conflict revolves around how hard it is to juggle their normal life with being a superhero. I'm not even against this concept, I just feel that too many people mimic it formulaic without putting their own, unique spin on it. Do it if you want to, but make sure you're making it your own. Try and add something new; show a different angle.
Of course, I'd be wary of the opposite extreme; making your character really cool with, and dare I say, psyched out, about being a hero. I don't want to hear someone stand around and talk about how awesome superheroes are. Don't try to convince us you love superheroes. I believe you, and I agree. A little commentary is okay, but overall, show, don't tell. Be the thing your exited about.

-- well im going lil bit for the spiderman thing, but im definitley not going for what the stupid writers did to Spidey in recent years!
TURTLEBOY will have responsibilitie- heck im planing on going all for making some of the characters having consequences!

Ironmans. Again, love Ironman, but in this area, even Marvel can't help but repeat it's own formula. I feel like Ant Man and Deadpool are both just tweaked versions of Ironman; Ant Man is just Ironman as a petty thief, and Deadpool is Ironman except WHOA! HE'S VULGAR! THAT IS SO REVOLUTIONARY!!!!
(Okay, before anyone get's up in arms, I thought Deadpool was a good movie overall...but to be honest, I hardly laughed.)
Okay, maybe Deadpool's a bit of a stretch, but do you get what I'm saying? All the heroes (mainstream or otherwise) who's whole gimick is to crack jokes, they all start to run together after a while. Again, if you think you can do it well and put your own spin on it, that's fine.

---ok ill noe that, but i do plan on cracking some puns, ill still keep my character like you are writing here!

I guess, overall, what I'm trying to say is, don't do something that's been done before and try to pass it off as original. That's the only thing that really irks me. If you want to do something that's been done before, admit that it's been done before, and then try to do it better. And if you want to do something different...I hope you can pull it off.

--i do belive that what im doing has alredy been dne, but i think no one had guts for having a child hero (like literaly a kid as hero)
---and really thanks for the coment- it did help alot :)
Okay, sorry for the long rant, and sorry if it wasn't specific enough. You really got me thinking. Anyway, I hope it was helpful!
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Re: Superheros! i need lil help with your awnsers!

Postby eishiya » June 19th, 2017, 9:39 am

For easier readability, you can break up quoted text by putting [/quote], adding your reply, then putting [_quote] (without the _) at the start of the next quoted bit:

Code: Select all
[quote="person"]Hey I said a thing.[/quote]
I responded to a thing.
[quote]I said another thing[/quote]
I responded to another thing.


Result:
person wrote:Hey I said a thing.

I responded to a thing.
I said another thing

I responded to another thing.


Way easier to read and tell which parts are the responses, isn't it?

Also, please try to avoid double-posting. You can quote two different people in one post by copy+pasting the quoted post into your first post. I understand not wanting to do that with such long posts though, so this is just something to keep in mind for the future.
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Re: Superheros! i need lil help with your awnsers!

Postby Ultima527 » June 19th, 2017, 4:39 pm

Taz Hassiotis wrote:Now for some things I don't like:
Spidermans. Don't get me wrong, I like Spiderman. What I don't like is everything trying to take the same approach; an angsty, teenage superhero, where much of the conflict revolves around how hard it is to juggle their normal life with being a superhero. I'm not even against this concept, I just feel that too many people mimic it formulaic without putting their own, unique spin on it. Do it if you want to, but make sure you're making it your own. Try and add something new; show a different angle.
Of course, I'd be wary of the opposite extreme; making your character really cool with, and dare I say, psyched out, about being a hero. I don't want to hear someone stand around and talk about how awesome superheroes are. Don't try to convince us you love superheroes. I believe you, and I agree. A little commentary is okay, but overall, show, don't tell. Be the thing your exited about.

-- well im going lil bit for the spiderman thing, but im definitley not going for what the stupid writers did to Spidey in recent years!
TURTLEBOY will have responsibilitie- heck im planing on going all for making some of the characters having consequences!


Upon reflection, I think my gripe with Spiderman is a bit restrictive. OF COURSE the hero should have normal, real-life problems, and of course they should intersect with his super-hero problems. A story that doesn't do this would be very bland.
I'm just worried about people repeating Spiderman down to the last note...and for the record, I'm saying this based on experience. I experimented with superheros a lot before I was properly introduced to the world of webcomics, and I wanted ALL OF THEM to be Spiderman. I guess something about that formula resonated with me, but after a while it got old.
It comes down to the specifics. What kinds of problems does your hero have to put up with? And of course your hero should react to these problems, even if it comes off as "angst."
Formula's don't always need to be avoided; they just need to be tweaked for variety. Turtleboy doesn't sound like a Spiderman clone. :D
In fact, making him a kid instead of a teenager is a big enough variation as far as I'm concerned.

And I don't feel like finding and quoting the Ironman conversation, but make no mistake: Puns are essential.
Again, I think that criticism was more of an arbitrary judgement of the attitudes behind...people copying...other characters? It wasn't very articulate, now that I think about it. You're characters can definitely make jokes.
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