Manga style for the serious artist.

Discuss specific genres here. If your post fits into one of the subforums, post it there.

Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby Antitime » March 29th, 2011, 4:02 pm

Now, this is not something I'm posting to bash anime, by the way. I obviously have a huge manga influence on my style, but in that there comes a problem.

I'm a fourth-year student at art school, and my department (illustration) really gives manga artists a hard time. We get a bad rep for being lazy and uncreative, and are often told to get our 'own' style, rather than copy something popular. In illustration styles with a lot of realism, or over-simplification such as outsider art (essentially art that is made to look intentionally rough or poorly done in some cases) as well as more cartoony 'New Yorkeresque' styles, are held at a higher rank than even well-done or original mangaesque styles.

This way of thinking has honestly rubbed off on me a great deal, to the point where I have a fully-developed non-manga style and a more cartoony manga style now instead of the fusion I had before, which was easier to shrug off and label as 'anime.'

I just want to know how fellow manga enthusiasts feel about their preferred style being thought of as cheap and easy to pull off by professional illustrators. I'm not saying I agree or disagree- I have plenty of discrepancies with most manga art, but obviously I like it if I draw it. The reason this pertains to you, is that a lot of you have dreams of going on to be professionals, whether it be comic artists or illustrators or animators, when the fact of the matter is, those industries largely look down on the style.

I think there's definitely something to be learned from both sides of this argument.
Image
The_Hankerchief wrote:Why choose when you can have 'em all? That's right, I'm talking about a Smack Jeeves Orgy!
User avatar
Antitime
 
Posts: 616
Joined: June 21st, 2007, 7:36 pm

Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby Guest » March 29th, 2011, 4:37 pm

it's utter foolishness to think manga style's all the same i mean look at this
Spoiler! :
Image

then look at this
Spoiler! :
Image


very different, no?
Guest
 

Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby Antitime » March 29th, 2011, 4:43 pm

This is less of an argument that all manga looks the same, and more that manga is looked down on in general and not seen as an art form. If you ask many professional artists what their opinion of anime is, they often and strongly voice their dislike for the medium.

not all of them, mind you, but a great deal of them.
Image
The_Hankerchief wrote:Why choose when you can have 'em all? That's right, I'm talking about a Smack Jeeves Orgy!
User avatar
Antitime
 
Posts: 616
Joined: June 21st, 2007, 7:36 pm

Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby blankd » March 29th, 2011, 4:58 pm

Well I definitely have a manga-esque style. I am personally trying to break/fuse it with more cartoon/other aspects- however this is for design purposes rather than dodging "a manga style". Also one thing I have to point out is that most Western Industry standards of "what is manga" is usually hilariously bad/outdated (ref: HOW TO DRAW MANGA by an American Cartoonist) and looks wrong when they try to imitate it.
*Kind of interesting, when I showed a sketch book to my teachers they would say "manga influence" but admit they still liked the designs, etc. and apparently "just adding thicker lines" makes it less "anime". Then again I'm in Game Art, so that might be the difference.

In general most people seem to dislike the Mnaga/Anime style because it is popular with the masses and can be (more easily) emulated than the 'realism' going on in Western Comics. Also, not trying to knock cartoonists but most of the cartoons these days are over-geometric and simple designs (and just TWEEN'D rather than animated)- anime/manga is a happy medium and has an additional non-visual attraction that appeals to people (plot, characters, etc.).

Most of the "faults" with anime in general seem to be "it's different, I don't like it" rather than actual style technicalities. Most people who dislike the anime style are typically picturing generi-anime and going from there. While anime/manga isn't without it's faults (sameface and worse in bad cases), it isn't utterly devoid of creativity/design like many in the western industry think.
SuperBiasedMan wrote:Just because you've proven something blankd doesn't mean I have to believe it.

Image Image
User avatar
blankd
 
Posts: 3684
Joined: January 28th, 2010, 12:43 am
Location: computer

Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby Kattlanna » March 29th, 2011, 5:04 pm

There's a difference between drawing in a manga style because you genuinely appreciate it (while adding your own elements to it), and simply imitating a manga style by copying the most common surface elements of it for the sake of appealing to manga fans/popularity. I'd say that unfortunately, the latter happens too much, and is most professors' first impressions and expectations.

It's pretty bleak, but you should stand your ground, and show them through your work that simply drawing in a manga style doesn't necessarily mean slacking off on anatomy, details, background, or developing a distinct style.
User avatar
Kattlanna
 
Posts: 182
Joined: July 30th, 2008, 4:50 pm

Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby gun21 » March 29th, 2011, 5:07 pm

Last edited by gun21 on March 29th, 2011, 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
gun21
 
Posts: 3487
Joined: March 7th, 2006, 4:41 pm
Location: NO PLACE FOR HIDEO

Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby blankd » March 29th, 2011, 5:10 pm

Kattlanna wrote:There's a difference between drawing in a manga style because you genuinely appreciate it (while adding your own elements to it), and simply imitating a manga style by copying the most common surface elements of it for the sake of appealing to manga fans/popularity. I'd say that unfortunately, the latter happens too much, and is most professors' first impressions and expectations.

The workaround is simple, have a "variety" platter with your different skills/styles, a varied portfolio is almost always better anyway. As long as one can demonstrate that "manga/anime" isn't the ONLY thing you can do, you'll generally be fine.
SuperBiasedMan wrote:Just because you've proven something blankd doesn't mean I have to believe it.

Image Image
User avatar
blankd
 
Posts: 3684
Joined: January 28th, 2010, 12:43 am
Location: computer

Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby gevans1961 » March 29th, 2011, 5:11 pm

I don't really get misjudged because the style I usually draw in isn't the generic look that people stereotype it for. My advice would be to not go for obvious styles. There are quite a few manga artist that draw with a western feel (try googling Natsume Ono, Naoki Urasawa, Jiro Taniguchi, Ryoichi Ikegami).
gevans1961
 

Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby Antitime » March 29th, 2011, 7:45 pm

gevans1961 wrote:I don't really get misjudged because the style I usually draw in isn't the generic look that people stereotype it for. My advice would be to not go for obvious styles. There are quite a few manga artist that draw with a western feel (try googling Natsume Ono, Naoki Urasawa, Jiro Taniguchi, Ryoichi Ikegami).

Oh, um, I didn't make this topic because I'm insecure about my style or feel that it's generic by any means. I think a lot of people would tell you that it's not. I just feel that I'm often negatively stereotyped by association with the manga style, and so are plenty of other otherwise decent artists in my department, and wanted to share this fact with others who thought they were interested in perusing manga as a career or in school.

Actually one of my lofty goals is to change the way people view the so-called 'anime' style, and to encourage others to branch out from what they know.

blankd wrote:
Kattlanna wrote:There's a difference between drawing in a manga style because you genuinely appreciate it (while adding your own elements to it), and simply imitating a manga style by copying the most common surface elements of it for the sake of appealing to manga fans/popularity. I'd say that unfortunately, the latter happens too much, and is most professors' first impressions and expectations.

The workaround is simple, have a "variety" platter with your different skills/styles, a varied portfolio is almost always better anyway. As long as one can demonstrate that "manga/anime" isn't the ONLY thing you can do, you'll generally be fine.


actually, in my school, they discourage you from having a varied portfolio. They tell you to pick a style and stick with it, or people won't know what they're going to get.

I think it's bullshit, but, that's just what I'm told.
Image
The_Hankerchief wrote:Why choose when you can have 'em all? That's right, I'm talking about a Smack Jeeves Orgy!
User avatar
Antitime
 
Posts: 616
Joined: June 21st, 2007, 7:36 pm

Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby blankd » March 29th, 2011, 8:21 pm

...That IS bullshit. 8\
SuperBiasedMan wrote:Just because you've proven something blankd doesn't mean I have to believe it.

Image Image
User avatar
blankd
 
Posts: 3684
Joined: January 28th, 2010, 12:43 am
Location: computer

Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby Antitime » March 29th, 2011, 8:34 pm

Well if you think about it, in the illustration field that does make sense, because you're generally applying to a very specific niche when looking for jobs. They tell you to do separate portfolios if you wish to pursue different fields. I'm not sure how it is with sequential or animation, but that's how it's viewed in illustration. My school is known for actually preparing people for the workplace rather than just teaching us art skills, so I trust their word on it, but I do understand the importance of knowing a variety of techniques, styles and mediums.

As for their view on 'anime...' well that's what this topic is about really. I'm not complaining about myself personally- when I draw less anime teachers really like my work and think I have a lot of style and talent. It's just the principle of the matter- I have to change what I want to draw to please them, which is exactly what they preach not to do.
Image
The_Hankerchief wrote:Why choose when you can have 'em all? That's right, I'm talking about a Smack Jeeves Orgy!
User avatar
Antitime
 
Posts: 616
Joined: June 21st, 2007, 7:36 pm

Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby Guest » April 1st, 2011, 9:55 pm

I drew western style comics for several years before switching to manga style about 5 or 6 years ago. I can tell you there's ABSOLUTELY no difference in skill level between the two. It's just as hard to draw a good manga page as it is to draw a good western style page. Manga, in fact, is harder because there are many 'secret' things going on... conventions (sweatdrops, speedlines, focus lines, etc), history of manga, references to other manga and anime... western comic art is mostly about copying other western style comic art... it's amazing how many professional western artists are still copying John Buscema's style... I doubt if there's a single published western comic that hasn't copied Sue Storm's flared-out hand pose.

It comes down to what you love to draw... if you've changed your style because of other people's criticism then you weren't meant to draw manga. We draw manga because it's a passion, it's love, it's something we do because we would rather stop drawing than change style. So, you don't have the passion to draw manga, art school has taught you to draw what sells. And that's something to think about... just what is the reason you draw? Because something gnaws at your gut every morning when you wake up, driving you to draw the visions in your head, or is it because you want to be popular and make money and be a 'success'? It's something you need to figure out for yourself. And that goes for manga style or western style... you're being untrue to yourself if you don't draw what you love.

Would you be happy doing what you love and not making money at it, or doing whatever the rest of the world says you *should* do to make money? I think you need to put on an anime DVD, sit back, and see if you still have the love there. You *can* be a success drawing manga style, I have several friends who make a living at it... that's no longer an issue....

One of my old western style pages as some sort of proof that I speak from experience :-)
http://users.zoominternet.net/~twellman/SJ/5.jpg
Guest
 

Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby Antitime » April 1st, 2011, 10:12 pm

Well Tim, to be honest, it sounds like you're insinuating that me wanting to make a career off art and take the advice of my professors is a bad thing. If I didn't honestly love what I've been doing, I wouldn't have continued to draw manga despite the plethora of people I have coming up to me and telling me they hate my preferred style. Just so you know, you sound a bit condescending at that part, though I do appreciate the imput of someone who has come from western to anime.

And yes, it eats away at me every day I wake up- that's why I bothered making such a topic rather than quit while I'm ahead.

The reason I chose illustration was so I could make a living doing what I love. If my style changes with time, that doesn't mean I don't love what i'm drawing, but that i've learned and grown from critique. But when the critique goes so far as to say manga is an immature style, I have a problem, which is why I posted this topic, to question the validity of what I've been taught.

Then again, there are plenty of people who tell me that they love what I do despite not liking manga. I wouldn't say it balances out because Manga is still largely ridiculed in my department, but it is enough to keep me going.

You can draw entirely for yourself, but in the end, you still want others to acknowledge you. It's a part of being human. And like i said, I have to pay the bills- it's a bit too late for a senior to quit school because they don't like anime in her department. I actually had a teacher tell me "people will shy away from hiring you if they see anime in your portfolio." I talked to another professor about it, however, and we agreed that illustration is heading backwards towards a glossy, concept-art sort of realism rather than embracing something new and strange- that is, to say, a largely foreign style. In the United States, anyway. It's not that way in France, for example, where they've integrated anime into their mainstream style.

This thread was not made for the purpose of me bashing anime and telling people to grow up and get a new style, but to show people that the world is not all candy and shoujo bubbles after high school. it's only natural to question your style, like questioning a religion.
Image
The_Hankerchief wrote:Why choose when you can have 'em all? That's right, I'm talking about a Smack Jeeves Orgy!
User avatar
Antitime
 
Posts: 616
Joined: June 21st, 2007, 7:36 pm

Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby Guest » April 1st, 2011, 10:21 pm

But again, it comes down to what is going to make you money, or what you love to do. It's completely up to you, but you seem to be taking too much advice from your teachers... who obviously couldn't make a living at their art, that's why they teach :-)

I started as an art major, lasted one year before switching over to creative writing, so I'm not ignorant about how things work.

Anyway, none of my comments were criticism, just pointing out things you need to consider all by yourself, not in a conference with your professors. Once you graduate, they won't even remember your name, but you have to live with yourself the rest of your life. Good luck, whatever way you choose.
Guest
 

Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby Guest » April 2nd, 2011, 3:27 pm

Antitime wrote:Now, this is not something I'm posting to bash anime, by the way. I obviously have a huge manga influence on my style, but in that there comes a problem.

I'm a fourth-year student at art school, and my department (illustration) really gives manga artists a hard time. We get a bad rep for being lazy and uncreative, and are often told to get our 'own' style, rather than copy something popular. In illustration styles with a lot of realism, or over-simplification such as outsider art (essentially art that is made to look intentionally rough or poorly done in some cases) as well as more cartoony 'New Yorkeresque' styles, are held at a higher rank than even well-done or original mangaesque styles.

This way of thinking has honestly rubbed off on me a great deal, to the point where I have a fully-developed non-manga style and a more cartoony manga style now instead of the fusion I had before, which was easier to shrug off and label as 'anime.'

I just want to know how fellow manga enthusiasts feel about their preferred style being thought of as cheap and easy to pull off by professional illustrators. I'm not saying I agree or disagree- I have plenty of discrepancies with most manga art, but obviously I like it if I draw it. The reason this pertains to you, is that a lot of you have dreams of going on to be professionals, whether it be comic artists or illustrators or animators, when the fact of the matter is, those industries largely look down on the style.

I think there's definitely something to be learned from both sides of this argument.


Dude... I just posted a topic similar to this and didn't even see this one. My take on it is that Americans seem to have this "draw American" thing going on. It's really sad.
Guest
 

Next

Return to Genre-Specific Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest