Manga style for the serious artist.

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Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby Guest » April 7th, 2011, 3:04 pm

For me, drawing a 'manga' look is sort of a guilty pleasure, considering how many people Bash on others for simply giving their characters large eyes. Besides, if it's successful for you, who's to argue that it shouldn't be utilized.
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Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby mindwarpcomics » April 7th, 2011, 7:37 pm

it's just a bias on their part.
even in drawing something of a "generic" anime style is incredibly complex and beautiful.
just b/c they don't understand it doesn't mean it isn't legitimate.
a few decades ago "modern art" wasn't considered legit in art school. now people can't stop gushing over rauschenberg. it totally bullshit.
you just have to be confident in your own decisions. you can't produce work that you don't stand by. as others before me have said, there's nothing makes american style or even realism more legit than manga style. they all have their high points and their low points.
it's not stupid to want to listen to your profs and it is good to try different things to see which you like better, but i have to point out that even in gallery-type of "high" art, manga-esque artists like Audrey Kawasaki are extremely successful.
her art teachers said there was no way in hell that she could make a living out of drawing anime girls on wood panels. she dropped out of art school (i think it was pratt or something like that) and is now making thousands of dollars (each selling for about $200) on the the prints of the paintings alone. that doesn't even include how much her originals go for.
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Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby mossi-mo » April 9th, 2011, 3:26 pm

I find it extremely annoying and I definitely know what you mean. I've had only one art class but I found that when I said I liked manga the teacher instantly expected me to only be able to draw that. I've spent a lot of time drawing realism and other things to progress my manga-style, so it was not much of a problem for me to prove him wrong.

But if I hear this one more time: "Well even though it's in manga style I can see that you have some skill" I will burst.

The same goes for people who can draw from photos. I get really... antsy when someone believes that they are the end all be all of art because they can draw a photo in grayscale. (Like taking a test with the answer in front of them). Yet, when they try to do something like manga or even Western Action Comic style they fail miserably, but wonder why. A lot of people take one look at the triangular chin and large eyes and think that it's the easiest thing to replicate.

Prove them wrong every chance that you get.
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Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby Antitime » April 11th, 2011, 10:02 pm

Thank you all for listening and not judging. I have one really supportive teacher who offered to sit down in a conference with my other teacher and defend my style to the grave because she honestly thinks I'm really talented and original, and I think that one teacher is more meaningful to me than the plethora of old farts who still think we should all draw like Norman Rockwell. I aim to change the way people feel about my style by drawing meaningful things, and that's all I can really hope for.
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Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby Guest » April 11th, 2011, 10:26 pm

mossi-mo wrote:I get really... antsy when someone believes that they are the end all be all of art because they can draw a photo in grayscale. (Like taking a test with the answer in front of them). Yet, when they try to do something like manga or even Western Action Comic style they fail miserably, but wonder why. A lot of people take one look at the triangular chin and large eyes and think that it's the easiest thing to replicate.


That's very true actually, depending on the style. Sometimes I find the triangular chin to be the most frustrating part XDDD

antitime wrote:Thank you all for listening and not judging. I have one really supportive teacher who offered to sit down in a conference with my other teacher and defend my style to the grave because she honestly thinks I'm really talented and original, and I think that one teacher is more meaningful to me than the plethora of old farts who still think we should all draw like Norman Rockwell. I aim to change the way people feel about my style by drawing meaningful things, and that's all I can really hope for.


That's great! =D Glad to hear it. I hope a lot of people start doing that more instead of running away from the problem. That's the only way we can get things to change.
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Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby Gibson Twist » April 11th, 2011, 11:23 pm

I'm not sure this is a subject that can be generalized, and it seems like something that artists who are manga-influenced are more likely to believe that instructors who advise against manga styles are some measure of ignorant. Some of them are, but not all. The truth is that it's not always an artistic question...there's a very real aspect of commercial viability.

Artists with a significantly manga style in North America are at a severe disadvantage when it comes to getting work. There isn't a large market for it here when it comes to publishing, since North American publishers can get original Japanese material cheaper and audiences look at non-Japanese manga artists as inferior. When it comes to commercial illustration for manga artists, it's practically nil.

Now, artists whose styles draw from both Asian and Western influences is a different story. Folks who embrace both are dominating the comics industry and have a much easier time finding commercial work. In fact, the broader an artist's range of influence, the better their work is going to be in general, not just in graphic arts but across the spectrum. So, really, one could say to an artist with significant Western-only influences should be learning from Eastern sources as much as manga artists should be seeking Western influences.

Yes, sometimes art teachers aren't very good and don't understand styles that are outside their wheelhouse, and anyone who advocates ditching manga styles altogether is not seeing a bigger picture, but no more than a manga artist who refuses to expand their horizons. It's not always easy to know when an instructor is steering us toward xenophobia or open-mindedness, but it's important to recognize that distinction.

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Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby Antitime » April 12th, 2011, 10:01 am

Gibson Twist wrote:I'm not sure this is a subject that can be generalized, and it seems like something that artists who are manga-influenced are more likely to believe that instructors who advise against manga styles are some measure of ignorant. Some of them are, but not all. The truth is that it's not always an artistic question...there's a very real aspect of commercial viability.

Artists with a significantly manga style in North America are at a severe disadvantage when it comes to getting work. There isn't a large market for it here when it comes to publishing, since North American publishers can get original Japanese material cheaper and audiences look at non-Japanese manga artists as inferior. When it comes to commercial illustration for manga artists, it's practically nil.

Now, artists whose styles draw from both Asian and Western influences is a different story. Folks who embrace both are dominating the comics industry and have a much easier time finding commercial work. In fact, the broader an artist's range of influence, the better their work is going to be in general, not just in graphic arts but across the spectrum. So, really, one could say to an artist with significant Western-only influences should be learning from Eastern sources as much as manga artists should be seeking Western influences.

Yes, sometimes art teachers aren't very good and don't understand styles that are outside their wheelhouse, and anyone who advocates ditching manga styles altogether is not seeing a bigger picture, but no more than a manga artist who refuses to expand their horizons. It's not always easy to know when an instructor is steering us toward xenophobia or open-mindedness, but it's important to recognize that distinction.

blah blah blah

Thank you Gibson, this is exactly what I was getting at. There is a validity to what my teachers are saying beyond their "I don't like anime" (the one I'm doing Stabilizer for told me that yesterday. I seriously cried.) But at the same time, I see nothing wrong with me drawing obviously from both sources. I wouldn't look at my art and say "that's anime lol" but unfortunately most people who aren't comic connoisseurs do say that.
I realize that i can't get far 'just drawing anime' but they fail to notice that there is nothing wrong with drawing influence from anime if you're putting your own twist on it.
My teacher had the nerve to say she didn't like it because she prefers people have their own style. It made angry, because I honestly feel that I have just as much originality as the people who do glossy realistic concept art whom she praises.
I feel immature when I disagree with a teacher, but I know that just because they're a teacher doesn't mean everything they say is right.
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Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby Vitotamito » April 12th, 2011, 10:36 am

Shit Anti, even my art style, as beyond western as it is, began as anime. In the animation department, even the people who like Anime considered their drawing anime a very middle-school thing to do, and most people were trying to break themselves of it without teachers saying this. Teachers didn't care, they'd say, "Sure, go ahead. Avatar was a completely American anime." But for some reason people have a weird idea that anime + college = childish. (I know I personally felt that way once I got to high school, though I couldn't tell you why).
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Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby Antitime » April 12th, 2011, 10:51 am

really? Avatar was animated in Korea, so that's funny. But otherwise, I don't understand why anime artists have to beat up on themselves when people with saccharine or absurd styles are perfectly acceptable. My old roommate drew nothing but ugly people with gangley limbs. I draw psychological horror, and for some reason I'm the immature one. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with drawing funny things, I love comedy and cartoonyness, I just don't understand why that's considered more 'mature' than what I do. When my teacher asked why I drew anime, I just told her "it's what I enjoy drawing." I think she was a bit speechless because she said she'd talk to me about it later. I then showed her some of my less anime stuff and she liked it, so it's not a discrepancy with me sucking or my subject matter, just the style itself.
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Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby Vitotamito » April 12th, 2011, 11:02 am

Wellllll most stuff is done in Korea... Even things like The Fairly Oddparents and Spongebob are usually shipped off to Korea for inbetweening. It's a sad world we live in.
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Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby Rori » April 12th, 2011, 4:55 pm

Antitime wrote:I feel immature when I disagree with a teacher, but I know that just because they're a teacher doesn't mean everything they say is right.


It's always good to know where you're coming from when you disagree with an instructor, but you shouldn't feel childish for doing so. A big epiphany I had in college was when I started working on the newspaper: AP Style dictates that one should not call college instructors teachers, but "instructors". I'm not sure why that did it for me, but it made me realize, "hey, I'm an adult, I'm not in grade-school anymore." Your instructors are still that, but they aren't the authority that teachers were in grade school. Having civil disagreements and resolutions is part of a more adult relationship with people in education.

More on point, it's really cool that you have an instructor who's willing to go to bat for you. There are a lot of instructors who are very "my way or the highway" these are more commonly know as "bad instructors" ;) I was very lucky in my schooling, because the one instructor I had for comic drawing was awesome (though he still encouraged everyone to have they're own style). While I know that it is impossible that everyone could go take Ivan Brunetti's comic class, it would be awesome if they could. I also didn't major in illustration, so I was spared some of the really stick-in-the-mud instructors.
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Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby gun21 » April 12th, 2011, 7:27 pm

Vitotamito wrote:Wellllll most stuff is done in Korea... Even things like The Fairly Oddparents and Spongebob are usually shipped off to Korea for inbetweening. It's a sad world we live in.


Dude, watch.
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Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby Wander Tones » April 12th, 2011, 7:36 pm

gun21 wrote:
Vitotamito wrote:Wellllll most stuff is done in Korea... Even things like The Fairly Oddparents and Spongebob are usually shipped off to Korea for inbetweening. It's a sad world we live in.


Dude, watch.

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Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby Vitotamito » April 12th, 2011, 11:12 pm

gun21 wrote:
Vitotamito wrote:Wellllll most stuff is done in Korea... Even things like The Fairly Oddparents and Spongebob are usually shipped off to Korea for inbetweening. It's a sad world we live in.


Dude, watch.


We took time out of our busy schedule in class fall quarter to watch this.

I imagine the Koreans all got the whip for animating such anti-Korean propaganda.
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Re: Manga style for the serious artist.

Postby YakkitySax » April 13th, 2011, 12:10 am

I believe part of the problem, at least in my department which is Animation, anime is seen as a fad and slightly annoying. The school will usually get a handful of students who want to go and work in Japan and make Anime, but don't understand that while we do learn 2D animation, our main focus is 3D animation, since that is where the current market trend is going. During my orientation, my department director even said," If you're here to make Anime, this isn't the school for you."

He wasn't bashing the style. It's just I assume he's gotten enough students there ONLY because they like Anime and for nothing else, that's he's getting tired of it.
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