Is it "Racist" or just plain discrimination?

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Re: Is it "Racist" or just plain discrimination?

Postby Ddraigeneth » June 24th, 2011, 3:15 am

Yeah, I sort of mis-read the 'new posts' section, my other forum has a totally different lay-out. Sorry about that. Yeah, my computer's across the room so I'm posting over here.
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Re: Is it "Racist" or just plain discrimination?

Postby Gabu » June 27th, 2011, 11:39 pm

Ddraigeneth wrote:It's not racism, but it is discrimination.

I will say, as a general rule, I'm turned off by manga. Part of that is that I have more trouble processing purely black and white images (as so many decent comics are done in), but I also absolutely cannot stand the way it's spammed. Hearing everyone and their sister talk about being a mangaka, and how they're learning to draw by doing manga, just makes me cringe.

I have no problem with serious artists adopting aspects of the style (and I would say it counts as a style, since there are various traits shared between artists, in a way that makes the category distinctive), but I most certainly believe that you should learn to draw in other ways before excluding yourself to it.


This essentially sums up my opinion. I honestly don't care what method a person decides to draw in, so long as they don't constrict themselves to just that style then try to defend their crap when they're so used to their methods that the art looks more mechanical than anything. And by mechanical, I mean everyone stands straight, all the time, only work in several different poses, etc., etc. Granted all artists may start out this way (stiff drawings), and that's okay so long as the person is willing to learn different styles and art techniques in order to develop a style of their own.

But I don't think it's either racism or discrimination. It's kind of hard to fully describe what I want to say it is, but I know that neither of those words feel right for me to use about this whole debate on whether or not forcing a person to draw one way or the other is racism or discrimination. Though I would say that manga is, and I don't mean to offend anyone, overrated, to an extent? Which is why it gets the hate that it does. So probably discrimination.
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Re: Is it "Racist" or just plain discrimination?

Postby mitchellbravo » June 28th, 2011, 9:48 pm

Gabu wrote: Though I would say that manga is, and I don't mean to offend anyone, overrated, to an extent? Which is why it gets the hate that it does. So probably discrimination.


I know what you're saying, and can't really think of a better way to phrase it myself. I understand the hype about manga, in that the storytelling is vastly different than what your average American comic reader is used to, and I would also hazard to guess that it helped to level out society's perceived gender disparity among nerds (because manga can be for both boys AND girls, whereas there's this stodgy idea that American superhero comics are ONLY FOR BOYS AND NO GIRLS HAVE EVER EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT THEM).

I think it gets hated on a lot because, like other people have said within the thread, it's the current hot thing that everyone tries to imitate. The problem is that not everyone knows what it is they're supposed to be imitating, and you end up with a lot of stuff that looks like trash, but the artist doesn't realize it because, well, they copied their favorite artist and THEY must be correct, right? I imagine it would have been the same thing if the internet and webcomics had been around in the mid to late 20th century, with lots of people making crap attempts at the superhero style instead, like millions of Rob Liefelds running amok through the web jungle.

I've never really gotten into reading any manga myself. But I appreciate the changes that have taken place as a result of manga becoming more mainstream- more storytelling options and character types, for instance. I have a difficult time aesthetically appreciating most manga because I'm a hard sell when it comes to art anyway, and I generally don't find most of it appealing for some reason I can't quite explain- maybe it's because of having seen so many half-assed attempts at manga from unskilled amateurs that it's tainted my opinion of the "style" (I don't want to call it a genre, because it isn't) as a whole, who knows.

I don't think it's racism. It's nationalism if it has anything to do with some kind of us vs. them mentality, but more likely it's that kind of thing where you've never heard about Such and Such Thing, and suddenly everyone around you HAS Such and Such Thing, and everyone seems to only be TALKING about Such and Such Thing, and you glance at S&ST from an outsider's perspective and say "This is nowhere CLOSE to living up to the hype surrounding it."

It's an umbrella term for a certain range of artistic styles, some of which are breathtakingly detailed, some fascinatingly minimalist, some utter crap, some intended to appeal to one demographic, some for others, some which are used to tell comedic stories, some for action/adventures, and some used to tell dramatic tales of the psyche.

In short, no, manga does not deserve the amount of hatred directed toward it. Although I will concede that it has been hyped for the past ten/twenty years or so, and some people tend to forget that just because something is done in a manga/anime style does not automatically signify its great quality.

Yeah, so. It's a thing. Some people that like it can't understand why people hate it, some people that hate it can't understand why people like it. Same as math, or pointillism, or baroque chamber music, or ketchup. :)
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Re: Is it "Racist" or just plain discrimination?

Postby blackmoongirl2424 » July 1st, 2011, 3:08 am

I don't think it's either or. It's just plain: They hate on the popular/new thing.
In America if you drew/wrote comics you were HIGHLY looked down upon (it was just one above PORN). Most if not all early cartoonist never even included a real name if a name at all because they were almost ashamed to be associated with it. Jeff Smith, the creator of The Bone series,
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was KICKED OUT of art school because he liked to draw and have an art career in comics with a cartoony style instead of a realistic one.

It's just being a plain hypocrite.

I think the only thing that pisses me off worse is when an artist shows SHAME for drawing in a "horrible" (aka: Manga) style. You want to improve on your art skills, GREAT! Wonderful! But when you're like "yeah, I was a stupid kid that drew manga but now I'm drawing better things like American and cartoony stuff" OR "It sucks that my stuff still have that 'manga' vibe in there" don't show shame! You were inspired by X style as long as you're not trying to draw EXACTLY like them and genuinely trying to improve on your drawing skills there is nothing wrong with it. That's how you create a style by mushing different aspects together to make something new and your own. I'd understand if they were going for their art majors and just using nothing but short cuts and face gags

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But other than that, leave them be and let them grow style wise on their own. As long as they have the right "tools" and foundations it really doesn't matter if it looks like "Superman" or "Sailor Moon" (pretty much what people like to call it for me: "Oh you draw that Sailor Moon/Naruto stuff?" ....itrueallylooksnothinglikeitbutIguess....?). The comic industry is still too "unloved" (since in ways it's still not seen as equal as a Novel or a Movie) for us to be hating on each other anyways and saying X style is better than Y.
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Re: Is it "Racist" or just plain discrimination?

Postby CarnageRulez312 » July 4th, 2011, 4:51 am

You know what? I thought this was going to be a serious topic about racial issues but its about manga vs american? :lol: If they tell you to draw American, you draw American. If they allow manga you do manga, simple as that. There's nothing racist about that. :roll:
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Re: Is it "Racist" or just plain discrimination?

Postby fapwithink » July 4th, 2011, 5:17 am

I had an interesting debate with a professor after he chastised a girl in my class for "drawing manga." He laid off after I pointed out that it would be impossible for her to produce a manga unless we hopped on a plane and moved her into Japan, and if he was so hellbent on us adopting a more Americanized style then he should acquire a TARDIS and tell off all the GI's that brought American cartoons into Japan during their occupation. There's nothing wrong with being influenced by an Eastern style, but one trip around deviantArt will show that too many people now are trying to produce carbon copies and I can see how this would make a teacher wary.
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Re: Is it "Racist" or just plain discrimination?

Postby elmocrazy » July 6th, 2011, 9:45 am

I think the problem is with people starting out with the manga style without any knowledge of the basic human anatomy,proportions,etc. I myself started drawing manga style in elementary school and stayed away from realism. I saw Japanese art as superior to American and practically worshiped the country all though middle school. Recently however, I became interested in studying animation and realized that if I want to get into a good school and to be good at it I have to learn realism.

So basically, I think people are just ticked off with the amount of people who know nothing but manga and refuse to expand their horizons. But,if the artist does have all the basics down, I think they should have whatever style they choose. I don't see why people feel the need to separate American cartoon and comics from Japanese, I like both so why can't others?
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Re: Is it "Racist" or just plain discrimination?

Postby Guest » August 12th, 2011, 1:16 am

mitchellbravo wrote:Yeah, so. It's a thing. Some people that like it can't understand why people hate it, some people that hate it can't understand why people like it. Same as math, or pointillism, or baroque chamber music, or ketchup. :)


XDDDD Ketchup~ True, very true.

blackmoongirl2424 wrote:It's just being a plain hypocrite.

I think the only thing that pisses me off worse is when an artist shows SHAME for drawing in a "horrible" (aka: Manga) style. You want to improve on your art skills, GREAT! Wonderful! But when you're like "yeah, I was a stupid kid that drew manga but now I'm drawing better things like American and cartoony stuff" OR "It sucks that my stuff still have that 'manga' vibe in there" don't show shame! You were inspired by X style as long as you're not trying to draw EXACTLY like them and genuinely trying to improve on your drawing skills there is nothing wrong with it. That's how you create a style by mushing different aspects together to make something new and your own. I'd understand if they were going for their art majors and just using nothing but short cuts and face gags

As long as they have the right "tools" and foundations it really doesn't matter if it looks like "Superman" or "Sailor Moon" (pretty much what people like to call it for me: "Oh you draw that Sailor Moon/Naruto stuff?" ....itrueallylooksnothinglikeitbutIguess....?). The comic industry is still too "unloved" (since in ways it's still not seen as equal as a Novel or a Movie) for us to be hating on each other anyways and saying X style is better than Y.


Amen =]

CarnageRulez312 wrote:You know what? I thought this was going to be a serious topic about racial issues but its about manga vs american? :lol: If they tell you to draw American, you draw American. If they allow manga you do manga, simple as that. There's nothing racist about that. :roll:


._. Herm... I don't think you quite understand the subject here. Anyone in an art class knows that they have to be prepared to do that. The focus here is the discrimination against artists who were inspired more by Japanese or simply Asian animation.

fapwithink wrote:I had an interesting debate with a professor after he chastised a girl in my class for "drawing manga." He laid off after I pointed out that it would be impossible for her to produce a manga unless we hopped on a plane and moved her into Japan, and if he was so hellbent on us adopting a more Americanized style then he should acquire a TARDIS and tell off all the GI's that brought American cartoons into Japan during their occupation. There's nothing wrong with being influenced by an Eastern style, but one trip around deviantArt will show that too many people now are trying to produce carbon copies and I can see how this would make a teacher wary.


HAHAHAHAAH! The TARDIS comment made my day XD

I wouldn't say that there are "too many people" influenced by manga. It's just simply what the majority of sequential fans like right now. Too many doesn't always make something a bad thing.

If anything, there are "too many" teachers telling kids these days that manga is a bad thing and they hate it blah blah because it's just putting a negative thought in their minds. Expressing dislike is one thing, and there is nothing wrong with that. But discouraging something because you don't like it makes you a TERRIBLE art teacher in my book. Students are always going to have different interests. No one likes a teacher forcing their opinions on them and MAN are there a lot of teachers like that.

What I really wish that more Americans would understand is that manga is simply the Japanese word for comics ,so American comics are called manga in Japan, and the people over all this stuff in the industry right now are being nuts and it's creating all this negative debate.

Comics are comics and the world needs to suck it up.

elmocrazy wrote:I think the problem is with people starting out with the manga style without any knowledge of the basic human anatomy,proportions,etc. I myself started drawing manga style in elementary school and stayed away from realism. I saw Japanese art as superior to American and practically worshiped the country all though middle school. Recently however, I became interested in studying animation and realized that if I want to get into a good school and to be good at it I have to learn realism.

So basically, I think people are just ticked off with the amount of people who know nothing but manga and refuse to expand their horizons. But,if the artist does have all the basics down, I think they should have whatever style they choose. I don't see why people feel the need to separate American cartoon and comics from Japanese, I like both so why can't others?


True and I agree. However, that is the issue with comics (including manga) in general. Animation is animation. Comics and manga use animation too. It's just abstraction. Any kid who enjoys abstracted art is going to have trouble being forced to learn more realistic art. It isn't just manga. American comic fans are just as enthused, they are just simply outnumbered (possibly) in current times.

I can appreciate anything that has great art and an even better story.

What I can't stand, is a person who thinks their "American" art is superior and that anyone who likes manga can just go sit in a corner and basque in the glory of others. It just isn't fair, it's closed-minded, and hypocritical to discriminate.

Personally, I am WAY better at doing photo-realistic painting than manga "style" artwork. 0_o I find manga to be a hell of a lot more difficult. (Many people have told me that they feel the same.) But you know what? I just love it to death and I like the challenge and excitement it brings to me. I've been into manga and anime since I was 4. I've been doing both realistic and abstracted art since as far back as I can remember as well.

It's the passion for all art that makes you a better artist, not the passion of one type of art.
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Re: Is it "Racist" or just plain discrimination?

Postby Aeridis » August 20th, 2011, 1:57 am

You know, the funny thing about all this is that you can easily turn manga into a western cartoon style just by changing the head and the body proportions a little. I say let them have what they want for a moment, then slowly slip in some manga just to see what happens. :twisted:
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Re: Is it "Racist" or just plain discrimination?

Postby Guest » August 20th, 2011, 2:38 am

Tohru-of-Marshmello wrote:
fapwithink wrote:I had an interesting debate with a professor after he chastised a girl in my class for "drawing manga." He laid off after I pointed out that it would be impossible for her to produce a manga unless we hopped on a plane and moved her into Japan, and if he was so hellbent on us adopting a more Americanized style then he should acquire a TARDIS and tell off all the GI's that brought American cartoons into Japan during their occupation. There's nothing wrong with being influenced by an Eastern style, but one trip around deviantArt will show that too many people now are trying to produce carbon copies and I can see how this would make a teacher wary.


HAHAHAHAAH! The TARDIS comment made my day XD

I wouldn't say that there are "too many people" influenced by manga. It's just simply what the majority of sequential fans like right now. Too many doesn't always make something a bad thing.

True, but I think fapwithink meant there are too many people who, as I believe was stated before, copy just what they've seen without any understanding of the Japanese cartooning styles. Like blackmoongirl's picture shows, a lot of people just copy/paste "anime faces" instead of doing actual expressions and sometimes even learning when the appropriate time to use these faces are. Even though it got much, much better, try watching the first episode of the American made anime influenced Teen Titans. Good god...those faces =/= drama situations. And many comics do this (even some published works) because they think it's how the style works, forgetting that even manga that use those cut and paste expressions use real expressions when necessary, unless it's done entirely as chibis or something such as that.

fapwithink, if I misunderstood you, I'm sorry. ^^;;;

If anything, there are "too many" teachers telling kids these days that manga is a bad thing and they hate it blah blah because it's just putting a negative thought in their minds. Expressing dislike is one thing, and there is nothing wrong with that. But discouraging something because you don't like it makes you a TERRIBLE art teacher in my book. Students are always going to have different interests. No one likes a teacher forcing their opinions on them and MAN are there a lot of teachers like that.


Ha, this was my life in my high school art class. My teacher was a woman practically in love with realism. Anything else, even styles/forms that are considered highly respected, such as post-modern or anything else that have whole museums dedicated to them, she despised and demanded we never draw/paint in. Except a very bland western cartoon style she had a soft spot for. I honestly, after four years, couldn't figure it out. She believed all anime looked the same and were about the same stories, etc. Until senior year, when I finally found a Shonen Jump ad with Light Yagami next to Naruto, Luffy, Goku, and another title I'm unfamiliar with. Now, even she had to admit at least three of those look pretty damn different. XD
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Re: Is it "Racist" or just plain discrimination?

Postby Guest » August 20th, 2011, 3:12 am

I'm really sorry, but I'd just like to start off by saying that manhwa isn't chinese, it's korean.


Now, a lot of people are saying not to learn by copying something and that you really have to understand a style first and things along the line of that but in reality, didn't we all start out by copying something? Children start out by drawing spongebob or batman because they saw him on TV. They copy their cartoons because they like their cartoons. And as you get older you learn to develope your own style, usually with heavy influence from what you coppied as a child and young adult. But it's bound to start off looking like something.

Please keep in mind that a lot of people drawing manga on here and many other sites are still young and developing. If their style looks very much like one artist's then it is probably because of that. And as far as the static and dynamic poses go, that is something that requires a lot of practice. Look at a young artist of any style and you will see difficulty with it.

I've travelled a lot but I currently live in America and this is where I went to highschool too. I've noticed that "racism" is a word thrown around a lot. Everywhere. Most of the things accused of it have nothing to do with it at all. And this also is not trully a race issue but rather one of American or Art style superiorty. Which, having gone to highschool here, I saw a lot aswell. Not that we don't have it everywhere but damn...
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Re: Is it "Racist" or just plain discrimination?

Postby mitchellbravo » August 20th, 2011, 10:42 am

Iceloli101 wrote:Now, a lot of people are saying not to learn by copying something and that you really have to understand a style first and things along the line of that but in reality, didn't we all start out by copying something? Children start out by drawing spongebob or batman because they saw him on TV. They copy their cartoons because they like their cartoons. And as you get older you learn to develope your own style, usually with heavy influence from what you coppied as a child and young adult. But it's bound to start off looking like something.


Sure. But when you have reached an age where you want to improve your work and can think about it critically, it's time to step back and learn the rules about the style you're emulating. You can't just keep blindly copying something or aspects of something- I mean, you can, but you probably shouldn't.

And I need to point out that there's a difference between a style that just happens and a style that you deliberately strive for. People hide behind the phrase "It's my style" as an excuse to not have to do any extra work to improve. I admit that I used this excuse back when I was in high school to justify the fact that I wouldn't push myself to draw anything unlike the way I had been drawing all the while. It wasn't until I was in college and started to realize that I needed to make changes in order to make my current comic work that I had the epiphany that by saying "It's my style" I was really saying "I don't mind if others see a problem with this, I like it, it's easy, and I don't feel like working any harder on my art." It was that point that I bought a few books about graphic storytelling and approaches to cartoons and began to move on to the next step.

What I'm saying is that if you want to improve on your art, and you are old enough to not just copy what you see others doing, you need to look at your influences with a more critical eye and understand why things are done a certain way. When I was little and was "copying"* the style of Archie comics, I had the proportions entirely off and my art was unspectacular and confusing. I didn't understand why Dan DeCarlo et al. would design things one way instead of another, I just attempted to replicate what I saw without thinking critically about it. Now I am older, and while those comics certainly still are an influence to my art, I have incorporated other tricks and rules that I learned from other sources.

I'm not sure if I've been entirely clear in this post, so please let me know if I should clarify. I'm having a hard time making my point, which is that basically children have a free pass to copy what they want and draw however they want because realistically we can't expect children to go about being academic and broad-minded about something that in all likelihood they are just doing for fun. It's when you start to grow up and want to do something with your art-sell it, publish it in paper/online, just show it to people-that you ought to get just a pinch of an inch more serious about it if you want to see success.


*I have the word copying in quotes because if I showed you a sample of this art, you would have no idea that I was trying to copy anything :lol: I obviously didn't know anatomical basics and was zoomed in on a few memes that I thought would automatically improve my art if I used them.
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Re: Is it "Racist" or just plain discrimination?

Postby Aeridis » August 20th, 2011, 1:23 pm

Now this thread turned from manga vs american into copying art.

I think though, if your child draws a lot (I've always drawn a lot), you should probably get them into art classes. I guess 9 years old is a good time because at that time most kids relatively know what they want to do in their life. The reason to teach young is because it would be easier for kids to remember it like it's instinct, much like learning a new language. It's harder for a teenager to learn a new language because their minds are so preoccupied with homework, their love life, etc. Children on the other hand, when you get their interest, will retain the knowledge easier.

I was taking ASL in highschool, and I really wasn't that bad and I practiced every day at home, with my brother, and friends. My ASL teacher is married to a man who is deaf and she had a child with him, so she had to teach the boy how to use ASL to talk to his father. That kid is better at ASL than I would ever be, and sadly, I can only remember the alphabet, colors, and a few other words.
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Re: Is it "Racist" or just plain discrimination?

Postby SRQ » September 17th, 2011, 4:00 pm

I did get some flack from my tutors at college for drawing in a sort of anime-inspired style. Though to be honest, the only real similarity was the eyes. They forced me to draw both classically and in a western style, but in the end I gravitated back to my own way of doing things. Just do what you gotta do to get the grades in college, and then afterwards you can do whatever the hex you want and nobody can tell you otherwise.
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Re: Is it "Racist" or just plain discrimination?

Postby Loverofpiggies » September 17th, 2011, 4:23 pm

Aeridis wrote:I guess 9 years old is a good time because at that time most kids relatively know what they want to do in their life.


WHAT.

Ouch... ouch my brain!! That is so painfully off.
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