Zelda General

Re: Zelda General

Postby Guest » January 13th, 2012, 6:16 pm

Afrohawkman wrote:
Crystalbear wrote:
Seven Rain wrote:Wait, this is your first time playing OoT? :O
PREPARE FOR AMAZING... NESS. AMAZINGNESS!


Yes, prepare for the amazingness of an overrated title that only serves to stretch the unrealistic expectations in older and new gamers alike, the title that shall forever be compared to old and new titles, leading to more fans who just don't know what they really want.

...Amazingness!!

I feel like you could apply that sentence to a lot of Zelda games if you want to be that negative about it...it's still a good game, regardless of how "overrated" it really is.


Or games in general. :\ I read that and thought, "Final Fantasy VII?" lol
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Re: Zelda General

Postby Seven Rain » January 13th, 2012, 6:28 pm

Crystalbear wrote:
Seven Rain wrote:Wait, this is your first time playing OoT? :O
PREPARE FOR AMAZING... NESS. AMAZINGNESS!


Yes, prepare for the amazingness of an overrated title that only serves to stretch the unrealistic expectations in older and new gamers alike, the title that shall forever be compared to old and new titles, leading to more fans who just don't know what they really want.

...Amazingness!!

*EDIT*
Forget it. You take everything way too seriously and I'm not gonna add to that by being passive aggressive. Just do yourself a favor and lighten up.
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Re: Zelda General

Postby Crystalbear » January 13th, 2012, 7:23 pm

Eh, what can I say. I'm a pretty sarcastic person.

I do find the good things in OoT though, and it is a good game in its own right. But I ain't taking it back.
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Re: Zelda General

Postby Afrohawkman » January 13th, 2012, 11:06 pm

Well then I might as well toss in something I've been meaning to toss in for a while.

So the other day I finally, FINALLY trudged through Link's Awakening. You see I had never played it the first time when it came out, skipping over it and going straight to Seasons and Ages (I don't even know how I managed to miss Awakening, I just never played it) so when it got a release for the 3DS I immediately grabbed it. I did fairly well but could never figure out how to save by pressing the four buttons (L + R + Start + Select) because it's really hard to do on a 3DS due to their spacing so I used the normal "Head to the home screen and the game saves for you" tactic. Things went well until I got to the 6th dungeon and accidentally didn't go back to the home screen before saving. Needless to say, I lost everything after the second dungeon. It was...well, horrifying to say the least.

But recently I got back into and after finally beating it, I just have one question: what's so great about this game? I mean...I know I'm obviously biased from having to play it twice but after trudging through confusing side quests that actually had plot significance, tons of great but confusing cameos from other games, relatively uninspired dungeons with the classic "Use this tool like once and then you never use it again" mentality (which, to be fair, a lot of the older games suffered from so) and a lame "it was all a dream" ending...I don't know why it's just so revered. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's bad at all, it's a fairly good game, but it's just so...ugh. Like I feel like there was no payoff in the end. At least when I beat any of the other games I rescued someone; here, I fucking woke up.

I think that's probably my biggest problem. I love continuity and interesting plots but when the ending is, "It was all a dream" it just ruins the entire thing be it a game, movie, story...it's just a really bad way to end something. The whole, "Oh, he still did this all but the entire island just disappears because of it," is an even worse fate to think about too because then everyone disappears because of Link. It's either "live with monsters that don't even attack the village" or "entire island is gone/it was a dream". I mean...what?

Fuck...sorry for that little rant, I really had to get that off my chest. I just don't see why it's so amazing. I get why to some people it's a good game but as to why it's one of the best Zelda's...yeah I need some help there.
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Re: Zelda General

Postby Crystalbear » January 13th, 2012, 11:21 pm

Afrohawkman wrote:Well then I might as well toss in something I've been meaning to toss in for a while.

So the other day I finally, FINALLY trudged through Link's Awakening. You see I had never played it the first time when it came out, skipping over it and going straight to Seasons and Ages (I don't even know how I managed to miss Awakening, I just never played it) so when it got a release for the 3DS I immediately grabbed it. I did fairly well but could never figure out how to save by pressing the four buttons (L + R + Start + Select) because it's really hard to do on a 3DS due to their spacing so I used the normal "Head to the home screen and the game saves for you" tactic. Things went well until I got to the 6th dungeon and accidentally didn't go back to the home screen before saving. Needless to say, I lost everything after the second dungeon. It was...well, horrifying to say the least.

But recently I got back into and after finally beating it, I just have one question: what's so great about this game? I mean...I know I'm obviously biased from having to play it twice but after trudging through confusing side quests that actually had plot significance, tons of great but confusing cameos from other games, relatively uninspired dungeons with the classic "Use this tool like once and then you never use it again" mentality (which, to be fair, a lot of the older games suffered from so) and a lame "it was all a dream" ending...I don't know why it's just so revered. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's bad at all, it's a fairly good game, but it's just so...ugh. Like I feel like there was no payoff in the end. At least when I beat any of the other games I rescued someone; here, I fucking woke up.

I think that's probably my biggest problem. I love continuity and interesting plots but when the ending is, "It was all a dream" it just ruins the entire thing be it a game, movie, story...it's just a really bad way to end something. The whole, "Oh, he still did this all but the entire island just disappears because of it," is an even worse fate to think about too because then everyone disappears because of Link. It's either "live with monsters that don't even attack the village" or "entire island is gone/it was a dream". I mean...what?

Fuck...sorry for that little rant, I really had to get that off my chest. I just don't see why it's so amazing. I get why to some people it's a good game but as to why it's one of the best Zelda's...yeah I need some help there.


Link's Awakening is supposed to have that surprising twist, I think that's what really got a lot of people into it. The twist, along with the game's ending, made for a powerful impact. Though it obviously didn't have the same effect on you.

LA is more of a game that focuses more on the emotions that reality versus dream brings upon, and focuses on morals. There were actually players who argued amongst themselves whether to beat the game or not because they had grown so attached to its world and people. In that sense, LA is very different from most titles. And maybe that's one of the reasons why I love it so much, especially since it is more story-driven than anything else in the series, IMO. It's also one of the first games in the series that had character development to a degree.

As for its save system... It's an old game, so they didn't have much thought put into it. Honestly, LoZ, AoL and the original ALttP did not have very good save systems either. I had to die on purpose just to save in those, and I had a habit of doing that in LA with the exception of when I want to aim for the extra ending scene.

Lastly, the monsters don't really attack the towns in other Zelda games either. =P
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Re: Zelda General

Postby Seven Rain » January 13th, 2012, 11:25 pm

Afrohawkman wrote:I just don't see why it's so amazing. I get why to some people it's a good game but as to why it's one of the best Zelda's...yeah I need some help there.

I think the simplest answer is that it was the first portable Zelda. I mean I can relate to you in my feelings of the first Zelda on NES. I didn't find it enjoyable or interesting because I played LttP and the GB games before finally trying my hand at the original 2D title. It was too plain for me to play for more than half an hour or so without losing interest, and yet it's loved by many. Why? It was the original. It was the first of it's kind, just as Link's Awakening was for the GB. As for me I enjoyed Oracle of Seasons more, but LADX still holds a special place in my heart. I guess you could call it nostalgia goggles if you wish.

Another thing is even though you were late to the party and have seen more interesting stuff in later games, it did bring some unique stuff to the Zelda series. The first inclusion of Roc's Feather, the platforming elements, the cool cross-overs, the temporary power-ups dropped by enemies, etc.

Hope that legitimately helps. I won't go into the subjective stuff, just trying to throw in my two cents on it's popularity.
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Re: Zelda General

Postby Crystalbear » January 13th, 2012, 11:30 pm

I enjoy the 2D games more than the 3D ones to be honest... =|

I could go on that I sometimes feel that the 3D games made people dislike the 2D games, but I won't. I already have enough eyes glaring at me, rightfully so.

Edit: Oh I just remembered. LA actually helped to develop OoT. They stated before that if LA didn't exist or come earlier, OoT wouldn't be the same game we all know today. Though not many know that sadly...
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Re: Zelda General

Postby Seven Rain » January 13th, 2012, 11:44 pm

I enjoy both.
*Shrug*

In fact, I wish they would've kept making the portable games 2D instead of the graphics they went with in PH and ST.
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Re: Zelda General

Postby Afrohawkman » January 13th, 2012, 11:50 pm

Crystalbear wrote:Link's Awakening is supposed to have that surprising twist, I think that's what really got a lot of people into it. The twist, along with the game's ending, made for a powerful impact. Though it obviously didn't have the same effect on you.

LA is more of a game that focuses more on the emotions that reality versus dream brings upon, and focuses on morals. There were actually players who argued amongst themselves whether to beat the game or not because they had grown so attached to its world and people. In that sense, LA is very different from most titles. And maybe that's one of the reasons why I love it so much, especially since it is more story-driven than anything else in the series, IMO. It's also one of the first games in the series that had character development to a degree.

Okay, um. I'm going to level with you. While I agree that making a game that actually emotionally forces a player to stop playing a game just so they don't hurt the lives of the friends they hold near and dear in the game is pretty good writing, games should never force a player to stop playing a game. If a game is legitimately frightening to the point that some people can't actually handle it and that was its intended purpose (*cough* Amnesia *cough*) then yes, that's perfectly okay (though they're losing more players that way in my opinion anyway). But this is a Zelda game. I have never played a Zelda game, or any Nintendo game really, where I had to stop playing because beating the game was actually worse for everybody else. That is NOT good writing. That's a horrible, horrible twist and a horrible thing to do to the player, to make them KILL EVERYONE COOL.

I love it when a game allows me to choose how I beat the game based on my own morals. I hate it when a game presents you with a choice to either beat the game and kill everyone or don't and not beat the game. I should be beating the game in there somewhere, that's kind of the point of playing a game.

Also, on that character development there, help me out with that. I honestly didn't pay enough attention to really see anything other than Link and Marin and even then it wasn't deep character development.

Crystalbear wrote:Lastly, the monsters don't really attack the towns in other Zelda games either. =P

That is exactly my point. Why couldn't Link just leave well enough alone? If no one was in any immediate danger, why couldn't he just stay with Marin and live peacefully? Because it's a Zelda game that's why. This isn't some Harvest Moon game here, Link is here to kick ass, destroy the ancient evil and save lives, not kick ass and destroy fucking islands of people he actually likes or do absolutely nothing and live NOT kicking any ass. How in the world is that good writing for a Zelda game? At least in Ocarina of Time, they split the timeline so Link doesn't make the stupid mistake of opening the Sacred Realm so Ganon doesn't get the Triforce. In this, NOPE. EVERYBODY DIES.

Seven Rain wrote:Another thing is even though you were late to the party and have seen more interesting stuff in later games, it did bring some unique stuff to the Zelda series. The first inclusion of Roc's Feather, the platforming elements, the cool cross-overs, the temporary power-ups dropped by enemies, etc.

Hope that legitimately helps. I won't go into the subjective stuff, just trying to throw in my two cents on it's popularity.

It...helps a little. I mean Adventure of Link created jumping in the first place and I just recently learned to love and hate that game (I feel the same way about that as I do Battletoads. Okay not really. Battletoads is way fucking harder). That's really the only thing I'd take out of Link's Awakening, jumping. That's about it. Temporary power-ups got really fucking annoying after a while. You either found none for hours at a time or 20 of 'em in a minute and the music for them was just awful. Just. Awful.

Crystalbear wrote:Edit: Oh I just remembered. LA actually helped to develop OoT. They stated before that if LA didn't exist or come earlier, OoT wouldn't be the same game we all know today. Though not many know that sadly...

As much as I'm glad LA existed then as it did create some precedents and was a stepping stool for OoT, that doesn't make it any better. If I walked up to you and smacked you in the face and you decided to take up karate and that became so useful over the years for you, am I any better for walking up to you and smacking you in the face? No. Was it a good thing that I did? Well, that's entirely subjective.

EDIT: That is an extremely bad analogy now that I look at it but I can't think of anything better.
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Re: Zelda General

Postby Crystalbear » January 13th, 2012, 11:57 pm

Afrohawkman wrote:
Crystalbear wrote:Link's Awakening is supposed to have that surprising twist, I think that's what really got a lot of people into it. The twist, along with the game's ending, made for a powerful impact. Though it obviously didn't have the same effect on you.

LA is more of a game that focuses more on the emotions that reality versus dream brings upon, and focuses on morals. There were actually players who argued amongst themselves whether to beat the game or not because they had grown so attached to its world and people. In that sense, LA is very different from most titles. And maybe that's one of the reasons why I love it so much, especially since it is more story-driven than anything else in the series, IMO. It's also one of the first games in the series that had character development to a degree.

Okay, um. I'm going to level with you. While I agree that making a game that actually emotionally forces a player to stop playing a game just so they don't hurt the lives of the friends they hold near and dear in the game is pretty good writing, games should never force a player to stop playing a game. If a game is legitimately frightening to the point that some people can't actually handle it and that was its intended purpose (*cough* Amnesia *cough*) then yes, that's perfectly okay (though they're losing more players that way in my opinion anyway). But this is a Zelda game. I have never played a Zelda game, or any Nintendo game really, where I had to stop playing because beating the game was actually worse for everybody else. That is NOT good writing. That's a horrible, horrible twist and a horrible thing to do to the player, to make them KILL EVERYONE COOL.


Cool story bro.

In all seriousness, can't please everyone then. I don't care if you don't like the game, or at least the writing, but others did like the game and the writing. I personally thought that the writing, with its morals and all, was beautiful, especially since I no longer consider Link an avatar but rather his own person. But my point is, others liked the game, learn to accept that and move on.

Edit: Oh and the people in the island cannot be "killed" because they were always dreams to begin with. Dreams can't be killed, they merely end, and then remain in one's memories. Link at least has those fond memories, it's better than erasing all of those memories.

Also, on that character development there, help me out with that. I honestly didn't pay enough attention to really see anything other than Link and Marin and even then it wasn't deep character development.

That's why I said "to a degree". It did still have more development than ALttP though.

Crystalbear wrote:Edit: Oh I just remembered. LA actually helped to develop OoT. They stated before that if LA didn't exist or come earlier, OoT wouldn't be the same game we all know today. Though not many know that sadly...

As much as I'm glad LA existed then as it did create some precedents and was a stepping stool for OoT, that doesn't make it any better. If I walked up to you and smacked you in the face and you decided to take up karate and that became so useful over the years for you, am I any better for walking up to you and smacking you in the face? No. Was it a good thing that I did? Well, that's entirely subjective.


*Imagines a OoT that didn't have LA to look for inspiration...* Hmm... Well, OoT certainly does not look very epic when viewed in that light.

And what else was I gonna mention?... Oh that's right,

Move on.
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Re: Zelda General

Postby ApaFox » January 14th, 2012, 12:29 am

Aww, looks like I missed an entire conversation on personal preferences and deep held interpretations of portable Zelda games.

Why does the good stuff always happen when I'm not around.
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Re: Zelda General

Postby Afrohawkman » January 14th, 2012, 1:22 am

It's still going on if you wish to contribute. I'd personally love to hear some more stories about Link's Awakening from some different people so I can get a better perspective on this.
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Re: Zelda General

Postby Crystalbear » January 14th, 2012, 12:15 pm

Afrohawkman wrote:It's still going on if you wish to contribute. I'd personally love to hear some more stories about Link's Awakening from some different people so I can get a better perspective on this.


If you really want to get more opinions, then I would just suggest that you find a Zelda forum and ask there. It's probably better that way because not all of us here play Zelda or have played LA.

Oh and about the whole "This game does not contribute to the series at all because the world is a dream world", well, you could argue that Majora's Mask and Phantom Hourglass also do not contribute to the series for that same reason. In fact, I consider PH to be a clone of LA and I'm hearing no complaints on it.
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Re: Zelda General

Postby RyoSoulreaper » January 14th, 2012, 2:11 pm

ApaFox wrote:Aww, looks like I missed an entire conversation on personal preferences and deep held interpretations of portable Zelda games.

Why does the good stuff always happen when I'm not around.

Me and you both man.

Afrohawkman wrote:It's still going on if you wish to contribute. I'd personally love to hear some more stories about Link's Awakening from some different people so I can get a better perspective on this.

Oh well, then.....

I can see why it's a good game, LA. Hell, it was my first Zelda exposure when I was young and had an old school brick of a Gameboy. So it's still a game I hold dearly but, the build up kinda falls short for me. Kinda like, "Oh hell yeah, I'm gonna free that big ass fish, go back home, and save all these awesome people!"*beats game*"Hold up......It was a DREAM? Damn it I liked Marin!"

That was uncool.

As for 2D Vs. 3D I played and beat 4 2D titles before I managed to play a 3D title long enough to love it.
Probably because my first 3D game was Majora's Mask and at 7 that shit was horrifying. I was too much of a pussy to play it.
I like the 3D games. Hell my top 2 Zelda's are 3D titles but 2D games are the shit.

EDIT: PH contributed. Kinda......Like the Island did exist, he still had the hourglass but then again, At the end of MM it's assumed he kept all the stuff he had gotten during the game too.....
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Re: Zelda General

Postby Crystalbear » January 14th, 2012, 2:50 pm

The only thing that PH contributed was giving Link the hourglass, which he most likely never uses again, and turning Lineback into reality. Everything else was lost.

If I had to give a reason of what LA did contribute though... It says in the game manual that Link left sailing for self-training and enlightenment, which is also connected to the state of mind. Perhaps the whole dream world could have also served as a final test to Link, to mentally train him and become an overall better person as a hero, because one cannot cling to the state of dreaming forever, and that the real world and the real Wind Fish still needed him.

It's not just the Wind Fish that Link awakened, he awakened himself. You could say he's a man now.
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